wvu80 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Just now, CECAA850 said: Again, you're comparing an input to an output but I know what you mean. Pro level and consumer level gear has different connectors. Thank you. I know I didn't put that very clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Case and point. I had to order 2 of these for an amp I bought yesterday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACV92 Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Well, given the replies I may have to find some more space for the 15. It seems there's a slight split on the Umax vs. the Reference HO for mainly music listening. Roboklipsch, what you're saying makes sense. I'd like to see curves of an HO vs Umax. I would presume the HO would naturally run a steeper curve from say 35 to 20 versus the Umax. I would expect a hint more of a rise at 50 - 35 possibly than the Umax. I'm completely guessing here but it sounds right in my head. Correct me if I'm wrong. wvu80 - You've been very helpful as have the others. So, now I'm leaning towards the 15. I'm still going to do some more research on an amp, with everyone's input considered of course. Fizik has graciously offered to let me check out his setup. I'm definitely going to take him up on that. Anyway, thanks everyone. I really appreciate the feedback. As I said before, I want to do it right the first time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 The neutrik connection can also be change hot is a plus when working on the sub and thing are on or you forget to turn something off. I will take a neutrik connection any day over an RCA. Just hook the sub cable to a 1/4 in. TRS adapter and you are good. Sealed subs have a reputation of having a better transient response. In general this is true due to the air spring resistance. Transient response is a time domain issue and not a frequency response issue. The quickness of change for the drum strike or other instruments can be thought of as accuray. Transient response is highly limited by the lpf setting. The ability to stop and start a note is also related to motor strength. A ported sub can also have good transient response. A lot of how good the TR is related to the design of the box, sealed or vented. At higher volume the sealed will start to distort sooner due to cone movement. I've had sealed and vented subs of different brands and never could say the sealed was better for music. Maybe I listen to the wrong type of music, he,he. Accuracy in the small room is more dependent on bass decay and reverb than the transient response?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said: Accuracy in the small room is more dependent on bass decay and reverb than the transient response?? http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/10/subwoofer-transient-response.html "There are a lot of things to worry about in setting up a sound system, but subwoofer transient response isn't one of them. " 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, CECAA850 said: Case and point. I had to order 2 of these for an amp I bought yesterday. OK, that is the way to get the signal via from your AVR (for instance) to your Inuke (for instance) via an RCA cable and then the 1/4" adaptor. Is that the preferred way to do that, or should one purchase a cable with RCA on one end and 1/4" or XLR on the other? And from there, Inuke's Speakon OUT to the sub, with Speakon on the sub via pre-made cable. Or would it be better to use adapters to end at the sub with RCA? Using pro audio equipment is confusing to me in terms of what cabling is best to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 What you give up using the Dayton HO is a little extension you will never hear with music for a little better sound, vice versa with the Ultimax. Plotting response is fine but its not going to tell you how it will sound, if this was the case every speaker would sound the same. As for ported vs sealed, sealed for smaller rooms and ported for larger ones both designs should make little difference in sound quality if its done right. If considering the Dayton amp get the DVC version so you can add another sub using the same amplifier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 14 hours ago, ACV92 said: I'm considering diving into a DIY sub build after looking into a few others setups. I thought I would start with the Dayton Audio 12" Ultimax Kit and the Crown XLS 1002 Drivecore pro amp from Parts Express. I'm limited to the 12" due to some space constraints. It's mainly for music so I'm not overly worried about trolling down to subsonic levels. Unless budget is a big concern, if you're doing it only for music and you're limited on space, I'd recommend looking at Acoustic Elegance. Voice coil inductance is stupid low which means it doesn't have the upper rolloff that typical subs do. Also efficiency is way higher, like a 12" ultimax is 86.7 db at 2.83V with the coils wired in series for 4 ohms, while an Acoustic Elegance TD-12H is 96.5 db. That's about a 10 db difference which is ridiculous. No reason to be looking at ultimaxes for this application when AE is easily available for another $149. They're made in the US as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Just now, wvu80 said: should one purchase a cable with RCA on one end and 1/4" or XLR on the other? My way is the cheapest if you already have RCA cables. The result is the same either way. 1 minute ago, wvu80 said: And from there, Inuke's Speakon OUT to the sub, with Speakon on the sub via pre-made cable. Or would it be better to use adapters to end at the sub with RCA? It's easy to make your own. Just buy speaker wire and Speakon ends. You'll need 2 males for each wire and a female for the sub box. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, ACV92 said: wvu80 - You've been very helpful as have the others. So, now I'm leaning towards the 15. Now, about a pair of 18's... (wvu80 ducks and runs) +++ Here is the Reference 15, my hand is just above it. The finish is unfinished MDF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zim. Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Green is the Dayton Ultimax 12 in a 2cft sealed box. Blue is the Dayton 15 HO in a 3cft sealed box. Red is the Dayton Ultimax 15 in a 3cft sealed box. Black is TWO (2) of the Dayton Ultimax 12s in a 4cft box. All are "stuffed' to the reasonably closest possible value to get the 707 alignment In each case, the excursion is "just" touching xmax at around 10hz. These are very conservative and you can run them a little harder than this, but all are the same. In a sealed alignment, when EQing it to the room, boost will be needed to get to flat in all cases unless your room is tiny. Parts Express, who is selling the Daytons, has many threads explaining clearly that the reason the Ultimaxes were built is specifically for sealed alignments. It works just fine in sealed or in ported, but there is much discussion by the designers themselves that they built them for sealed enclosures, specifcally with a lot of XMAX to allow for boost. The graphs shown do not have any boost. In my experience, you will likely need boost (or Audyssey doing it itself, etc) to get to flat. The graphs are without boost so that a fair comparison can be seen without regard to the room itself. The issue with the RO drivers -- which are great, and specifically excellent for ported, is that in a sealed alignment you need even more boost (or cut) to get a flat line. The natural curve of the response slope is steeper and to correct it takes more. In the end, 4db or 6 or 8db is very significant, but not the only consideration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Measurements are at 1 meter. Keep in mind that at a distance of say 3 meters you have to take off another 9.5db from that measurement, more or less depending upon the seating position. Room gain, and sub positioning also have a significant effect...put it against a wall, or in a corner, the output goes up and can mitigate some of this. RK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 41 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said: Green is the Dayton Ultimax 12 in a 2cft sealed box. Blue is the Dayton 15 HO in a 3cft sealed box. Red is the Dayton Ultimax 15 in a 3cft sealed box. Black is TWO (2) of the Dayton Ultimax 12s in a 4cft box. All are "stuffed' to the reasonably closest possible value to get the 707 alignment In each case, the excursion is "just" touching xmax at around 10hz. These are very conservative and you can run them a little harder than this, but all are the same. In a sealed alignment, when EQing it to the room, boost will be needed to get to flat in all cases unless your room is tiny. Parts Express, who is selling the Daytons, has many threads explaining clearly that the reason the Ultimaxes were built is specifically for sealed alignments. It works just fine in sealed or in ported, but there is much discussion by the designers themselves that they built them for sealed enclosures, specifcally with a lot of XMAX to allow for boost. The graphs shown do not have any boost. In my experience, you will likely need boost (or Audyssey doing it itself, etc) to get to flat. The graphs are without boost so that a fair comparison can be seen without regard to the room itself. The issue with the RO drivers -- which are great, and specifically excellent for ported, is that in a sealed alignment you need even more boost (or cut) to get a flat line. The natural curve of the response slope is steeper and to correct it takes more. In the end, 4db or 6 or 8db is very significant, but not the only consideration. I would high pass all of these models to minimize excursion and distortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 hour ago, jason str said: I would high pass all of these models to minimize excursion and distortion. That's a very fair take on what to do, but the more I get into DIY and sub capabilities the more I realize that going in the other direction is more fun I realize that even 1% distortion may bother you, but when you can get 100+db at 1% or less distortion at 15hz it's hard to want to high pass that. There's no doubt no normal human can hear that frequency but there's also no doubt it has a distinct feel to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 To the original poster, just wanted to mention that while I was plugging in the T/S parameters of the 15" RO driver in order to graph it -- it came back and showed that there is a returned one of these available for less than $100! Normally $172 or so that's a huge bonus if you are interested. There is only one of those currently in stock so jump on it if you want a cheap solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said: That's a very fair take on what to do, but the more I get into DIY and sub capabilities the more I realize that going in the other direction is more fun I realize that even 1% distortion may bother you, but when you can get 100+db at 1% or less distortion at 15hz it's hard to want to high pass that. There's no doubt no normal human can hear that frequency but there's also no doubt it has a distinct feel to it Not going to happen with any of the above designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 HPF are not normally used in sealed subs. You can damage most any sub if the guy controlling the volume does not know what he is doing. Filters act on both sides of the target frequency which can be a negative but, hpf are employed to protect the driver in vented subwoofers. The proper way to go about setting the sub up is to know the max voltage for excursion and set that up in the amp with an appropriate attack and release setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 High pass filters can be used in nearly any design, especially for music where subsonic frequencies are few and far in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACV92 Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Roboklipsch - Thanks for the graph/info. It's a bit of an eye opener. I wouldn't have thought that the 15" Ultimax would have that much more output than the 15" HO. Their respective curves are more of what I expected but not that much of a db increase. So, I'd like to go with the 15" Umax but I'm just nervous about placement. It's a bedroom setup so there is really only one spot that I could put it, left front corner. It's about a 500 sq. ft. room but I'm limited with the layout and 'amenities' within it. That's why I was looking at the 12. There's only a 3" difference in width between the 15 and 12 but it's enough. A little more maneuverability with enough room in the right front corner to add a second one, if I wanted to. The more I read, adding number 2 is best for filling holes in the bandwidth/listening area while gaining 3/6 db depending on placement, etc. My thing is with the localization of sound from only one sub. Bass is 'non-linear' but I don't care who you are, you can tell where it's coming from. That's why I'd like to run one in each front corner. But the output difference between the 12 and the 15 is killing me, especially for less than $30 difference. I think some of the 'amenities' in the room may have to be consolidated.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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