DIY Sub Questions

[DizRotus]

IMO, TRS connectors are the worst, RCA are better and XLR or Speakon are the best.  I know that they are not totally interchangeable in their application, but I will fabricate the cables necessary to get the best possible combination.

 

My iNuke has XLR/TRS inputs and Speakon outputs.  It also accepts balanced inputs from my TPA3118 "Wiener" fed by the balanced output from my Pono player.  The weak link is the 1/8 TRS outputs from the Pono player.  I'm tempted to open it up to bypass the TRS outputs.

 

Back to the topic of subwoofers.  At Carl's suggestion, I built 4 Anarchy Exodus TH subs designed by Lilmike and sold as flat packs by DIYSoundgroup.  In  my small space, the relatively small depth needed to accommodate the Anarchy driver made placement easier.   One was good. Two were great.  Four were better.  Most people will not use more than one sub, but the benefits of multiple subs are real; more output and smoother output, but not lower extension.

 

Whether you go with sealed, ported, TH, IB or some other format, if you're into DIY, I recommend checking out DIYSoundgroup, in addition to Parts Express.  

[jason str]

5 hours ago, ACV92 said:

Roboklipsch - Thanks for the graph/info.  It's a bit of an eye opener.  I wouldn't have thought that the 15" Ultimax would have that much more output than the 15" HO.  Their respective curves are more of what I expected but not that much of a db increase. So, I'd like to go with the 15" Umax but I'm just nervous about placement.  It's a bedroom setup so there is really only one spot that I could put it, left front corner.  It's about a 500 sq. ft. room but I'm limited with the layout and 'amenities' within it. 

 

That's why I was looking at the 12.  There's only a 3" difference in width between the 15 and 12 but it's enough.  A little more maneuverability with enough room in the right front corner to add a second one, if I wanted to.  The more I read, adding number 2 is best for filling holes in the bandwidth/listening area while gaining 3/6 db depending on placement, etc. 

 

My thing is with the localization of sound from only one sub.  Bass is 'non-linear' but I don't care who you are, you can tell where it's coming from.  That's why I'd like to run one in each front corner.  But the output difference between the 12 and the 15 is killing me, especially for less than $30 difference.

 

I think some of the 'amenities' in the room may have to be consolidated....

 

There is about a 1dB difference between the two 15" drivers (HO & UM) in similar cabinet size cabinets, full volume @ 30 Hz. 1 dB is basically nearly inaudible, don't let that be the deciding factor.

 

Same goes for both 12" versions

 

You will only be able to hear localization if you cross over too high or use the wrong slope filter.

[derrickdj1]

To take advantage of the UM driver and bigger box is needed.

[RoboKlipsch]

3 hours ago, jason str said:

 

There is about a 1dB difference between the two 15" drivers (HO & UM) in similar cabinet size cabinets, full volume @ 30 Hz. 1 dB is basically nearly inaudible, don't let that be the deciding factor.

 

Same goes for both 12" versions

 

You will only be able to hear localization if you cross over too high or use the wrong slope filter.

The reason I posted the graph is to illustrate that this is not true.   104db vs 110db at 30hz is not a 1 db difference.  It is an entire sub difference, with more EQ needed to flatten the HO sub.  

[RoboKlipsch]

8 hours ago, ACV92 said:

Roboklipsch - Thanks for the graph/info.  It's a bit of an eye opener.  I wouldn't have thought that the 15" Ultimax would have that much more output than the 15" HO.  Their respective curves are more of what I expected but not that much of a db increase. So, I'd like to go with the 15" Umax but I'm just nervous about placement.  It's a bedroom setup so there is really only one spot that I could put it, left front corner.  It's about a 500 sq. ft. room but I'm limited with the layout and 'amenities' within it. 

 

That's why I was looking at the 12.  There's only a 3" difference in width between the 15 and 12 but it's enough.  A little more maneuverability with enough room in the right front corner to add a second one, if I wanted to.  The more I read, adding number 2 is best for filling holes in the bandwidth/listening area while gaining 3/6 db depending on placement, etc. 

 

My thing is with the localization of sound from only one sub.  Bass is 'non-linear' but I don't care who you are, you can tell where it's coming from.  That's why I'd like to run one in each front corner.  But the output difference between the 12 and the 15 is killing me, especially for less than $30 difference.

 

I think some of the 'amenities' in the room may have to be consolidated....

I've been down this road before, that's why I knew about the big difference in the flat pack options.

 

We are not here in the end to tell you what to do, only to provide more information to make a better decision.

I completely understand your point, and multiple subs are great -- I have 4 in each theater.

 

I would only caution this -- if 3" in the end ISN'T the end all be all, you will be happier to have MORE capability in the long run.

If you decide to try the 15, build one first, see what the results are, and then build a second if need be.

 

Front corners are a good spot if you like music, but are not necessarily best, so if that is how you are deciding I wouldn't necessarily put it all no that theory.

Front and back, if possible, may provide better response, there are studies you may have seen but you also may know your room.

 

I can only share my own experience that I was considering 4 Ultimax 12s, or some version of the Ultimaxes, and ended up getting car-type subs and some car boxes because the ones I found were very inexpensive (about $75 per driver).  For about 1/4 of the price I got 4 subs that do not the same output, but plenty for my purposes.  So there is no one solution that works right, there are often many, it's a matter of what YOU want.  

 

In the end, how many people are in the room watching is key.  If it's just you 95% of the time, one sub will do great as that one spot will sound terrific.  It becomes more complicated when you want multiple seats to sound good, at which point multiple subs help.  In some rooms, most of the room sounds great, and that is where the work comes in .  DDJ's theater has 8 subs, spread strategically, and there isn't a spot in a very large, odd-shaped room, that doesn't sound amazing.  It all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.....

 

[wvu80]

21 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

In a sealed alignment, when EQing it to the room, boost will be needed to get to flat in all cases unless your room is tiny.

Great charts and graphs Robo, and with explanation to boot!  You made that very easy for me to understand.  The data really supports your original contention that a pair of 12's (in REALLY big boxes) has about the same performance of a single 15, even in a smaller box.
+++

 

Real World Notes - Reference 15:  I am incredibly happy with my Reference 15 and the Umax looks to be a notch above, but I think we all understood that.  Fully assembled with plate amp I have about $350 into the R15 and my Yung SD500 does not max out the 800 wpc power handling of the driver.  Still sounds plenty loud and really good. 

 

I think the Ultimax and amp will put you into the $600 range but the upside is much greater for you as adding the second sub which can use the single Inuke is really where you save your money for max value.

 

Sealed typically uses bass boost right a 25 Hz.  When using sealed use polyfil 1 pound for every Cuft of box.  Three cubic foot box, 3 pounds of polyfil.

 

Don't fret the localization of the sub.  In the real world of your bedroom I think it will be much less of a problem than you are imagining.

 

My 15 is set up in a smallish bed room (now mancave) and there is wonderful room gain.  You will have no problem pressurizing the room, and no, you will not be able to hear the sub like a point source.  What will happen is your speaker drivers will sound like they have rich, full bass due to the frequency reinforcement.  You will be able to hear that.

 

I think you will outstandingly happy with the single Ultimax 15.  And if you "need" a second sub and no more space in the small room?  Stack 'em! 

 

 

[RoboKlipsch]

WVU thank you, the 12s are modeled together in a 4cft box -- not 2 boxes.  2 drivers in a 4cft box is the easy way to model 2 drivers (which models the same as 2 separate boxes).   So that is an apples to apples comparison, 2 12s in the 2cft flat packs, vs 1 15.

 

I totally agree with your HO sub and mentioned there is a returned sub on sale for $98!  He can build one sub for $215 + cables and paint

[wvu80]

23 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

I totally agree with your HO sub and mentioned there is a returned sub on sale for $98!  He can build one sub for $215 + cables and paint

ACV92, grab it!  Grab it fast before the next guy does!

 

I love a deal. 

+++

 

Edit:  Do you have a link?  I searched PE on Deals and didn't find it.

[jason str]

1 hour ago, RoboKlipsch said:

The reason I posted the graph is to illustrate that this is not true.   104db vs 110db at 30hz is not a 1 db difference.  It is an entire sub difference, with more EQ needed to flatten the HO sub.  

If you high pass for music like i previously mentioned 1 dB is exactly what you get. The Ultimax has more X-max but the HO is far more efficient.

[RoboKlipsch]

13 minutes ago, jason str said:

If you high pass for music like i previously mentioned 1 dB is exactly what you get. The Ultimax has more X-max but the HO is far more efficient.

The majority of people with sealed subs don't put in a high pass because they don't want to limit the output.  They pick a size that allows the excursion to work out without a HPF.  

[jason str]

13 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

The majority of people with sealed subs don't put in a high pass because they don't want to limit the output.  They pick a size that allows the excursion to work out without a HPF.  

 

Most subwoofer amplifiers come with high pass filters installed just for this reason, most are -3 @ 18 Hz but it varies from brand and model.

 

I was going of memory and the actual numbers are just over 2 dB, my apologies but i had to check to make sure. Either can be EQ'd as needed but plot was just as i said it was minus the little memory glitch.

 

 

[Paducah Home Theater]

11 hours ago, ACV92 said:

My thing is with the localization of sound from only one sub.  Bass is 'non-linear' but I don't care who you are, you can tell where it's coming from.

 

The problem is that crossovers aren't a brick wall, and some sub designs have resonances and coloration that give it away.  A pure tone less than 80 hz shouldn't be able to be localized if it's a nice driver, not being driven to the point of massive distortion, and the box is built right.  

[Paducah Home Theater]

1 hour ago, jason str said:

 

Most subwoofer amplifiers come with high pass filters installed just for this reason, most are -3 @ 18 Hz but it varies from brand and model.

 

Most subwoofer amplifiers nowadays just inherently kinda stink at this and can't do anything else even if they wanted to, they start falling off a cliff below 20 hz.   Gotta get into SpeakerPower and whatnot to stay flat for much below that.  

[jason str]

22 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

 

Most subwoofer amplifiers nowadays just inherently kinda stink at this and can't do anything else even if they wanted to, they start falling off a cliff below 20 hz.   Gotta get into SpeakerPower and whatnot to stay flat for much below that.  

 

I disagree, they are made specifically for driving subwoofers is all. The reason for the high pass is to protect the driver, ask any pro sound technician if they not only use a high pass but a limiter as well to protect their investments and get back to me.

 

Nothing but spewing distortion at higher SPL subsonic frequencies anyways, can't figure out why anybody would want this incorporated in their music playback myself but whatever floats your boat. Maybe if you had the proper tools for this with home theater (IE lots of large cabinets to handle the load) i can see the need but otherwise i say you are just pissin into the wind.

[wvu80]

16 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

 

Most subwoofer amplifiers nowadays just inherently kinda stink at this and can't do anything else even if they wanted to, they start falling off a cliff below 20 hz.

 

FYI Section:  I had to do a lot of reading to find this and it turns out the Yung SD series plate amps have a hard wired high pass filter at 30 Hz.  My sub will play 20 Hz tones with its Yung SD 500/w bass boost, but not with any authority.

 

As MetLakeOutfitters cautioned ^^^ check the specs of your sub AND amp to make sure the combo will perform in the frequency range which is important to you.

[jason str]

2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

 

FYI Section:  I had to do a lot of reading to find this and it turns out the Yung SD series plate amps have a hard wired high pass filter at 30 Hz.  My sub will play 20 Hz tones with its Yung SD 500/w bass boost, but not with any authority.

 

As MetLakeOutfitters cautioned ^^^ check the specs of your sub AND amp to make sure the combo will perform in the frequency range which is important to you.

 

30 Hz is fine for music. Some amplifiers have adjustable high pass options.

[RoboKlipsch]

2 hours ago, jason str said:

 

I disagree, they are made specifically for driving subwoofers is all. The reason for the high pass is to protect the driver, ask any pro sound technician if they not only use a high pass but a limiter as well to protect their investments and get back to me.

 

Nothing but spewing distortion at higher SPL subsonic frequencies anyways, can't figure out why anybody would want this incorporated in their music playback myself but whatever floats your boat. Maybe if you had the proper tools for this with home theater (IE lots of large cabinets to handle the load) i can see the need but otherwise i say you are just pissin into the wind.

I think you are 100% correct.  With only music it makes no sense.  Most are using it for HT too.   Put aside that horns have less distortion....why wouldnt you want extension to 15hz at under 1%?  or extension to say 5 or 7 with under 10%?  More accurate playback for HT.    Have you tried eq on a horn sub with a high excursion driver....i know thats not the purpose but wouldnt that work?

[CECAA850]

1 hour ago, RoboKlipsch said:

   Have you tried eq on a horn sub with a high excursion driver....i know thats not the purpose but wouldnt that work?

Extension in a horn loaded sub is determined by the horn length.  Adding extra power to a horn driver via eq under the fs of the horn will destroy the driver.

[jason str]

2 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

I think you are 100% correct.  With only music it makes no sense.  Most are using it for HT too.   Put aside that horns have less distortion....why wouldnt you want extension to 15hz at under 1%?  or extension to say 5 or 7 with under 10%?  More accurate playback for HT.    Have you tried eq on a horn sub with a high excursion driver....i know thats not the purpose but wouldnt that work?

 

You can EQ a horn below Fs you just need to be careful no to overdo it, you don't easily hear the distortion like you normally would on a stressed out direct radiating driver.

 

High output drivers don't work any better after a certain point on the fully horn loaded model subs.

[CECAA850]

You can definitely hear them bottom out.