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Got the Jubilee's, First time using active crossover, very lost!


AaronB123
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The reason why I ask is that the only time I had differences in sound using different loudspeaker wire was when I was using SETs with the output transformer taps inadvertently set on the 16 ohm points.  It wasn't very pleasant using any kind of wire, but any changes in impedance of the wire caused large changes in the sound, IIRC.

 

Chris

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Well, I can see both sides of this one.  Let me try to explain.  It's not really very easy unfortunately, so bear with me.

 

First, I'd say that Jubs are ruthless when it comes to bad recordings.  I've found that bad recordings cannot be made to sound like good recordings...but bad track mastering EQ and mastering-introduced clipping can be fixed extremely well.  However, If the original recording itself is bad, nothing can be done to make it sound good relative to really good recordings.  It's important to get that argument out the way of the discussion. 

 

Secondly, I've found that Jubs are actually very accommodating of reasonably good amplifiers and preamps.  I can hear differences in different amps and preamps, but even mediocre amps and preamps sound really good. I have very few complaints about amplifiers with Jubs--other than perhaps preferring higher slew rate amplifiers--which includes push-pull tube amps (with feedback to lower output impedance) and really good FET-type amplifiers with one or two stages--like Nelson Pass makes in his First Watt series.  However, it's definitely not a deal breaker to use even something like a Crown D-75A on the compression drivers, IMHO.  (YMMV.)

 

Third, I've found that very good amplifiers, compression drivers and crossovers can sound indistinguishable from the real thing on Jubs when playing extremely good recordings.  (It can scare the dogs, too--poor things.  We have to turn it down during movie thunderstorm sequences.)

 

So to your point, the reason why I asked about the type of amplifier that you're using (still a mystery) is that Jubs can magnify issues upstream - like having too high of an output impedance with regard to the driver + crossover circuitry.  There's nothing in the way in a K-402 and good compression driver that masks those kind of issues; it's like a scanning electron microscope that shows you everything

 

To your cable differences, above: I would first try using the 4 ohm tap if your amplifier is a SET...and also substitute a garden variety SS amp with very high damping (i.e., very low output impedance) in order to hear any differences. 

 

I've not experienced any differences using 20 gauge zip strip or 14 gauge loudspeaker wire: I can't hear any differences.  But I'm using an amplifier with 1 ohm output impedance direct coupled to my compression drivers (which have a minimum input impedance of 11 ohms and a nominal impedance of more like 14-16 ohms), and an amplifier with ~1/20th of an ohm output impedance direct coupled to the woofers.  In both cases, the minimum input impedance of the drivers is at least 10x higher than the output impedance of the driving amplifier.  This is a rule of thumb for maintaining decoupling in cascaded gain circuits with feedback (especially including microphonics effects).

 

I hate to talk about the passive crossover network, but it would be nice to know the input impedance of that network with attached drivers/horns, and the electrical impedance that each driver sees as a function of frequency.  There may be fairly large impedance swings that can magnify amplifier-load impedance coupling issues (also known as "damping issues") when using higher output impedance amplifiers.  These are unknowns.

 

Chris

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Chris, in the two weeks I've owned the Jubes (factory Jubes, Crites passive, Faital HP200) I have run thru a variety of amps in order to find a pecking order if you will. At this point and with yet another late entry to the rotation I would rank the best sound from Wright 2a3 monos/Wright preamp. This is all tube, tube rectified throughout, DHT. Have run this combo at on the 8 ohm tap. Amazing drive, surprisingly good and deep bass, sparkling non fatiguing highs. Next probably a Dennis Had (Cary) KT66 SE integrated, tube rectified, 8 ohm only. Probably the most balanced, smoothest of all. One of the quietest tube amps I have ever owned, graveyard quiet.  The latest entry are the Justin Weber massaged Nelson Pass Amp Camp Class A single ended solid state monoblocks with regulated power supplies giving 6 watts. No stories from Justin on these, very single ended tube like as promised. And deadly, stick your head in the horn quiet. Even more so with a Pass First Watt B1 buffered preamp. Played with the Wright tube pre was almost too much of everything, possibly too much gain which I can adjust to lower levels next time out. These are real close to the Wright 2a3 but there something about that 2a3 that's tough to beat. A quick mention to a Peter Daniel integrated 3875 chip amp. Hard to beat for 24/7 leave on convenience and damn good overall sound. Sometimes a bit flat with less top end single ended tube sparkle but solid bass and drive. 

I originally wired the crossover/drivers with very thin twisted single stranded copper wire I have used as Both IC and speaker wire in the past. No worries sounded great but this was the first set up. And the copper was direct to terminal, no solder or connections. For a more professional look I used my Belden Brilliance 14 gauge stranded speaker wire crimped to RatShack terminal spades. Looked great, sound changed. Too much of everything, particularly pronounced mid bass. Removed, back to single strand, smoothness returned. 

Thats it in a nutshell but all in all the Jubes sound great with all amps but certainly present differently, not a bad thing.

I may try the 4 ohm taps on the Wrights next time? Good idea? Faitals are 16 ohm.

Thanks Chris

 

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21 hours ago, AaronB123 said:

 

This brings me to my next question, what kind of speaker wire do you guys use or recommend? Right now I am using some RCA stuff I picked up at radio shack years ago. 

 

I like Mogami or Canare. Basically the same stuff they're wiring up recording/mastering studios with. Around $0.50 to $1 a foot.

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5 minutes ago, jazzmessengers said:

 

I like Mogami or Canare. Basically the same stuff they're wiring up recording/mastering studios with. Around $0.50 to $1 a foot.

It's funny you should mention Mogami. When I got the Jubilee's I noticed the XIlica only took XLR cables and thank god my processor and amp have those so I just switched all my cables from RCA to XLR and Mogami seemed to be the one with the best reviews so that's the brand I chose for all my new wires. 

 

Orbital shifter even has XLR inputs! 

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For the past few years have been working from a roll of Belden Brilliance 1311a stranded copper  12 gauge. Prior to buying this quantity I did my due diligence and found Belden actually engineered the 13--- series for quality playback environs. Seems to sound nice through several rigs it has powered. On the other hand and as I have written above it didn't fare so well when used as crossover wire in the Jubilees. Maybe its me? Don't know but I do know it sounded different, maybe Too much of a good thing compared to the very thin, single strand copper I originally had connected and is now back in place again. 

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51 minutes ago, jazzmessengers said:

 

I like Mogami or Canare. Basically the same stuff they're wiring up recording/mastering studios with. Around $0.50 to $1 a foot.

I like Mogami cables too, the guy that builds mine wires studios,  studio execs houses, home studios for major recording artists and its less expensive then going to guitar center to buy some Mogami cables. The last sets of RCA's he did for me, were 20$ a pair, and sound great!  I have heard some good things on the Altec board recently about Mil spec copper, covered with silver. I have too try it to see.....

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On 2/15/2017 at 0:02 AM, AaronB123 said:

Is it bad to have the xilica sitting right on top of my AVP like that?

 

I've monitored temps nothing really even gets warm. 

IMG_0915.JPG

what do you have sitting on my lascala??? lol... good to know with the all the other speakers you are 'testing' out, they are still part of your system mate!!  : )

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On 2/18/2017 at 2:12 PM, Chris A said:

 

The Richard Heyser Khorn review: https://community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=36543

 

This is the most informative loudspeaker review that I've read to date. 

 

Chris

i have this original 'clipped' artical from audio november 1986.  nice!

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9 hours ago, Klipschunger said:

what do you have sitting on my lascala??? lol... good to know with the all the other speakers you are 'testing' out, they are still part of your system mate!!  : )

LoL Ya it's got my TV on top if it but don't worry it's got rubber mats so no damage. I have a feeling that La Scala (both of them)will be with me forever. Still the most beautiful pair I've ever seen. Hey did you ever end up picking up those K-horns you were telling me about? If so, what are your thoughts? 

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3 hours ago, AaronB123 said:

LoL Ya it's got my TV on top if it but don't worry it's got rubber mats so no damage. I have a feeling that La Scala (both of them)will be with me forever. Still the most beautiful pair I've ever seen. Hey did you ever end up picking up those K-horns you were telling me about? If so, what are your thoughts? 

i did pick them up.... along with several other vintage speakers and equipment along the way. the reno isnt finished yet, 2 more weeks.... which puts me in daytona for bike week pretty much so it will be a lil bit before i get them hooked up still.   : (       i will let you know when i hook everything up i will send pics too. 

in the mean time check this setup out.... i found this CL add in one of my searches.... i wonder if he'd take 35k for it???....doubt it tho!!!  https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/ele/5926093997.html

 

good to hear from you tc

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7 hours ago, Schu said:

after a week or so... how are the sounding?

Absolutely amazing! They are extremely revealing though, I think even moreso than the K-horns. I'm not sure if everyone is aware or not but I use my computer as my main audio source and have a lot of mp3's that I use and I've found since getting these I'm going back and ripping everything in lossless wav format otherwise you can hear every imperfection. Well worth it though! 

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On 2/20/2017 at 9:31 PM, mungkiman said:

Some rubber will either soften, discolor or even "eat" lacquer. Not sure what finish you have on your Scalas...

I like these dual density sliders from Lowes, they are dense but soft.  Think blackboard eraser.

 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/The-Hillman-Group-4-Pack-2-5-x-9-in-Rectangle-Reusable-Felt-Hard-Surface-Sliders/50322153

 

038902074652.jpg

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On 2/16/2017 at 6:30 AM, Chris A said:

Just a note on this:

 

Yesterday, Aaron and I achieved extremely good settings for the K-691 compression driver version of the two-way Jubilee, and by comments back to me he is extremely pleased with the results.  The settings we developed achieve ±1.5 dB flatness from 200-15000 Hz (psychoacoustic smoothing) and ±3 dB from 40-200 Hz (excluding sparse room modes).  It takes 5 PEQs for each bass bin channel and 6 PEQs for each compression driver channel to achieve this performance.

 

If anyone needs support with either these using the settings we generated for this configuration, or with generating other horn/driver settings using a digital crossover, REW freeware and a calibration microphone, please don't hesitate to ask. This is done remotely using email to transfer the REW measurements and resulting digital crossover settings.

 

If you are willing to install REW freeware, a microphone, and a connection to your preamp's inputs from your computer (via digital bus or soundcard output), you can use these to find digital crossover settings of high quality in-room for your loudspeakers.  This includes bi-amping, tri-amping, or even mono-amping if still using the internal passive crossovers.

 

Chris

Would the EV DX 38 active, still be a good choice for 2 way Jubilee's ? Easy to get set up for a technically challenged beginner ? I have seen some used ones selling for reasonable prices...

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