No longer NEED a subwoofer....

[SWL]

Those who know me would verify that's a pretty strong statement coming from me.
 
Recently, some of the changes I've made have gotten me to this point. KLF-30's really don't NEED subs but I've always and I mean always have enjoyed a sub to accent the bass coming out of my mains. Newest additions that have contributed to this....in order from most influential to least are:
 
1. A-55G midrange drivers
2. ISO-Regen from Uptone Audio
3. LPS-1 power supply from Uptone Audio
4. IFI Micro-link USB-Spdif converter
5. Curious Cable Regen-Link (full loom)

 
Obviously, most if not all of my two-channel listening is computer based. The days of jitter induced, digital sounding, digital based audio are now polished to the point that there's no going back for me.
 
It has been amazing to experience what happens when jitter and any other nasty digital enemies are eliminated. #1 in my experience is the bass. It has more weight, punch and defnition. The music in general has more space and fidelity.
 
I'm sure I'll use my subs on occasion but in the meantime I'm really appreciating what my speakers are capable of. Besides upgrading the mid drivers, it really has been a good example of how important it is to feed your speakers properly.
 
Crap in = Crap out. No doubt. [emoji4]
 
Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk
 
 

[Mallette]

If you do not listen to material that requires going below C1, you don't need a subwoofer for fidelity.  Reasonably flat to 32, as with a K'horn, provides the 16' organ fundamental which was PWK's target.  He knew the low note on a grand piano was a bit lower...and this is clear as my Frazier Eleven's edged out K'horn on piano fidelity in a "shoot out" in that one area.  If you want 32' organ fundamentals, thunder drums, and such, however, you need a sub or a VERY large speaker...which is what caused PWK to draw a line...and a pretty good one at that.

 

None of the above is about 'whumpa," but about fidelity.  If one listens only to string quartets, small jazz groups, and such it's irrelevant.  Quality is defined as fitness for intended use.

 

Dave

[RoboKlipsch]

As one of probably just a few that had the privilege of hearing your listening room(s), I can only imagine exactly how good it sounds now.

 

I can only share with the others that when I came into your place, and heard the sound, it is to date, the clearest and best sounding music I have ever heard in my life.

You've got a great ear obviously and somehow migrated towards those KLF30s and to me they sound better than RF7s and everything else I've heard so far.

 

Mods to the speakers and system to improve the sound I would imagine makes it even better and more clear.

That quest for the perfect, clear sounding music is really what appeals to everyone.

 

You're way ahead of the curve 

[Schu]

I still run my sub even its not really necessary... most of the time. I still find that there is more thump to the bass kicker and there are those pieces of music that do send frequencies very low.

[SWL]

Decided to blow the dust of my 30's tonight....and everything else apparently. Couldn't resist flicking the switch on for the subs.

Wow, these Tubas have some serious nuts. Combined with the 30's Metallica was just in my living room. Fricken awesome. Just like old times, the clock was bouncing on the wall. Reminds me of how many clocks I used to go through not to mention velcroing everything down to keep from flying off the shelves when I had 6 subs in here.

So yeah, scratch what I said about not needing subs. Well, not at normal levels.....but when you wanna rock out, the more/bigger the subs the better. [emoji14]

Man, that was awesome. Now I need to get my hearing back....

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[SWL]

When I had the hammer down, the lights on my Crown K2 barely lit up. Oh yeah...efficient speakers, LOTSA power and big a$$ subs. Dig it. LOL.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[derrickdj1]

I like using subs but, a lot of my 2 ch. is without subs.  I listen at moderate levels, and rarely blast music.  The KLF 30's are some capable speakers along with the KLF 20's.  I like the Legend series of big speakers.

[Mallette]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:18 PM, SWL said:

Well, not at normal levels...

Why no interest in the last octaves at "normal" levels?  Normal would assume at least a volume relative to "realistic" adjusted to room size.  I don't always crank a pipe organ to cathedral levels...but no matter how loud I play it I want it ALL there.  A well designed horn loaded sub will be felt/heard even at low levels when adjusted properly.

Dave

[SWL]

As one of probably just a few that had the privilege of hearing your listening room(s), I can only imagine exactly how good it sounds now.







 







I can only share with the others that when I came into your place, and heard the sound, it is to date, the clearest and best sounding music I have ever heard in my life.







You've got a great ear obviously and somehow migrated towards those KLF30s and to me they sound better than RF7s and everything else I've heard so far.







 







Mods to the speakers and system to improve the sound I would imagine makes it even better and more clear.







That quest for the perfect, clear sounding music is really what appeals to everyone.







 







You're way ahead of the curve 

Thanks for the positive comments! [emoji4]

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[russ69]

21 hours ago, Mallette said:

  Reasonably flat to 32, as with a K'horn, provides the 16' organ fundamental which was PWK's target.  Dave

Most of the time a person would be happy with this kind of LF response. Paul got that right.

[SWL]

Why no interest in the last octaves at "normal" levels?  Normal would assume at least a volume relative to "realistic" adjusted to room size.  I don't always crank a pipe organ to cathedral levels...but no matter how loud I play it I want it ALL there.  A well designed horn loaded sub will be felt/heard even at low levels when adjust properly.







Dave

You're right Dave. Normally, I run my subs from 30-90hz. Recently, I was running them just below where my mains roll off. So, somewhere between 25-36hz. I still don't know exactly how low these Tubas go but the test tones I've played, although not scientific, will play down to about 25hz but with not much output it seems. Hmm...

As clean and perfect as these subs play, since my recent upgrades to my KLF-30's the 30's just have a cleaner, more punchy and open presentation. Even at low/normal volumes now, the subs just seem to 'veil' what the 30's are doing so well.

So last night, I redialed in the subs again so they were playing from 30-90hz and at loud volumes with some aggressive hard rock music it was every headbangers dream come true. The added weight and overall 'sledgehammer' bass really gives it a live music atmosphere.

Returning back to my normal levels of 65-75db, the 30's by themselves with no subs are more dynamic, punchy and 'right'.

There's no doubt a 'room thing' happening as far as the subs go. I've had so many subs come in and out of this room...tried every location...every tweak....phase....crossover setting...etc. etc. The location my subs are in now (front right corner) has been a constant prime location for every sub I've tried in this room.

Up until the most recent improvements to my digital chain and speakers, the Tubas were really impressing me how clean they played. Now, my mains have stolen the spotlight. The subs aren't going anywhere. It's nice having the option to go either way.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[SWL]

So Dave, if I recall correctly you're running Khorns or was it Jubilees? What frequency range do you play your subs at?

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[Schu]

mine are tuned for below 50Hz... maybe even lower than 40Hz.

I let the mains to most of the heavy lifting.

[SWL]

That's how I always ran my previous DR subs.....usually between 40-60hz. One thing that has amazed me with the horn loaded Tubas is how I can run them all the way up to 110hz. I settle at 90hz.....sounds like the sweet spot.

For some reason, tuning them lower just doesn't work in here.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[Schu]

I need a horn sub... I love the sound. I think the main reason I dont run the sub higher is because of the distortion and blooming issue. if I had tight controlled low frequency, I would probably run mine higher also.

[Mallette]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 9:06 AM, Schu said:

I need a horn sub... I love the sound. I think the main reason I dont run the sub higher is because of the distortion and blooming issue. if I had tight controlled low frequency, I would probably run mine higher also.

You get it, Schu.  Horn loaded subs are transparent for the same reasons horns are in the upper frequencies, and just as PWK preached.  Uncolored, and capable of balance even at low levels where sealed or vented boxes disappear. 

 

Dave

[dtel]

On March 7, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Schu said:

I need a horn sub... I love the sound. I think the main reason I dont run the sub higher is because of the distortion and blooming issue. if I had tight controlled low frequency, I would probably run mine higher also.

Yes you do need a horn loaded sub, I fried a direct radiator 12" sub in a 5 cf cabinet trying to blend in with mwm's. Built a Danely Spud clone, 2  8" drivers, it does great with the mwm's, crossed at 40. The correct volume on the little 180 wpc amp to blend in and just fill in the bottom is around 10 o'clock. Horn subs are really efficient and to me sound like they are never really working hard.

[SWL]

Since starting this thread, I went to town trying to figure out why my Tubas weren't sounding as impressive as before. The main reason....upgrades to the mains and upgrades to my upstream components made the mains sound considerably better.

But as I looked into it further, I realized my gains weren't right on my amp powering the Tubas. Since I got that right, I went nuts cranking those suckers. The power these subs have is incredible.

So after making the proper adjustments to the sub amp, the Tubas are sounding nice again at normal levels.

What is kinda bumming me out, is that when I run the subs to only fill in below where the speakers roll off, it just doesn't sound that good. The subs don't sound clean down there like they do up around 60-110hz.

Right now, listening at about 65-70db they sound really nice at 60hz. When I'm really cranking it, they sound better cutoff around 100-110hz.

What are you guys using for bass management with your horn subs? I'm running a vintage two-channel system using a Paradigm X-30 to control gain, x-over and phase.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

[KenazFilan]

I am looking at subs because I may be picking up a pair of Heresies in the future for my bedroom system.  (I presently have a pair of  Bose 10.2s that have excellent bass).  My Fortes in their present setup will hit 35hz before the sound starts to drop off and are still putting out pretty good sound at 32hz: I'd need a pretty big subwoofer to supplement that. And seeing as how I generally listen to jazz and classical music I'm not sure how often I would need it: I'm not sure I can justify spending $1k+ for the occasional organ symphony.

[ACV92]

@SWL  OK, I have no experience with tubas.  I came across this website, http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T24.html, is this the design you're referencing?  I found it interesting that the 24, 30, and 45 design of these subs exhibit an almost 10dB gain between 60 - 100 Hz.  60 Hz on the low side, 100 Hz pushes to 10 dB up.  Similar to what you've described.  So, my rookie question is that at higher volume levels are the KLF-30's falling off at the 60 - 100 Hz range where crossing over the tuba is filling in?  Is this a comparative gain issue?  

 

I guess if it were me I would mic the KLF 30's by themselves at 60 - 65 dB and at the higher listening levels and see if there's a distinct difference in the graph.  Next, I would do the same with the tubas and see if there's a blend point.  Could you high shelf the tubas vs. low pass?  Or, are you getting cancellation at higher dB levels?  I'm throwing things at the wall to see if I'm beginning to understand real audio.  I apologize for green horn syndrome.  Don't mean to waste anyone's time.