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Mitchibo

Should I stay or should I go...

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AVC92, yup. It's just money. Help make America great again by spending your hard earned cash. Be patient and read carefully with the MiniDSP instructions and definitely use the tutorial. I jumped off the cliff and ordered two more subs. Now I'm wondering about whether to connect the front two together, back two together or the left back/front and right back/front? Two outs available on my Denon. Annnnnnd...go!

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23 hours ago, Mitchibo said:

AVC92, yup. It's just money. Help make America great again by spending your hard earned cash. Be patient and read carefully with the MiniDSP instructions and definitely use the tutorial. I jumped off the cliff and ordered two more subs. Now I'm wondering about whether to connect the front two together, back two together or the left back/front and right back/front? Two outs available on my Denon. Annnnnnd...go!

Due to phase issues, it is easier to have a front stage group and a rear group.  I would set delays for each front or reas sub in the mini DSP. Then let autocalibration set a distance for each group.

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Logical. Running the sub through mini. Made tons of measurements and I've manage to flatten the response from a rise at 20 to +/- 5db to an 80 falloff. However, I'm not familiar with setting delays through mini. I can see my impulse response graph but I'm not sure how to "set" the delays. Currently REW measures the delay at 8.35 ms (9.4 ft) with an acoustic reference. Does the mini 2x4 HD allow manual delay options? 

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With 3 subs or more and lots of time, I can almost guarantee you that you CAN create a mostly flat response in that room across all the listening positions.

 

As Derrick said (and mentored me), ASSYMETRICAL!  placement is not about appearance, initially.  find where the "perfect" spots are and then as needed, compromise so that the room looks right.

 

It's incredibly time consuming, and fun, to get the incremental gains that come from placing the subs.  It took me weeks....change it, listen, measure, change it, listen, measure, but at some point, i reached the "end" of being able to move ANY of them and improve the response at all positions.

 

Throwing a wrench (tool) into the mix here, I will warn/advise that delays on those subs is absolutely amazingly critical.   Once placement is right, then delays are critically important.   I got my subs very close to flat, but once I found the right setting for delay (it was in my case, 3ms added to the back subs) that magically all 4 came into alignment and gave me a flat response without EQ.  Room treatment at that point is all that is left to flatten further. 

 

I'm gonna guess you are currently at about 60-70% of your "best" capability.  Depending upon how much time and interest you have, you will notice that the more times you try new positions and measure and listen, the better it gets.  For me, it was a matter of always thinking....yeah, but it could be better, right?  Until the point where it couldn't.  

 

I started my entire sub placement like this -- i took one sub, and measured it in every single place around the edge of the room, labeled them on a chart and then saved them all in REW.  By doing this, I had a very solid idea where the best spots were going to be.  I think I took 20 measurements to get the main positions within the room.  I took about 2000 more before I finished...but those initial 20 told me A LOT.  

 

For anyone who hasn't used REW yet, let me say this.  You can load it up, turn it on, get your microphone connected and be measuring in 2 minutes.  IT IS that easy.  There's plenty to learn about it, how to use it better, what it's doing...but really, you want to see a curve of your room?   It takes 2 minutes.  Click - Measure, set a range, and let it work!  That one measurement then gives you about 10 windows of data....SPL, distortion, delay, waterfalls, it's a load of information and you do NOT need to learn it all if you don't want to.

 

Measuring, imo, opens the door to understanding that things like distortion, group delay, and decay are MORE important than just an SPL graph. This is where treating the room really comes into play.  Sure, the SPL chart changes a bit, but look at a decay or waterfall graph and it will shock you.  Take your panels out, take a measurement, then put them back, you won't believe the difference in a waterfall graph.  THAT is what makes a home theater so special imo, the smoothing of the decay across the frequencies is more important than the overall SPL imo.  

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There are two sets of delays --

 

delays for all the speakers, based upon distance 

delays between the subs, which you control, which are often not based purely on actual distance

 

finessing the sub distances is an art form, or trial and error.  more delay, less delay, you can only try so many combinations BUT this is key.

 

Let me provide you a link to what I consider the most valuable post ever made about integrating speakers and subwoofers.  It is written by the gent who designed the front speakers I am currently using.  He is brilliant and knows what he's talking about -- try this and see.  Derrick taught me the basics, I ran with them and found all kinds of resources :)

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1713458-mtg90a-s-multiple-subwoofers-mains-integration-how-thread.html

 

****** SINGLE GREATEST PIECE OF INFORMATION I HAVE EVER BEEN GIVEN REGARDING SETUP AND INTEGRATION....NO LIE!  ******

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i WOULD GUESS THAT 95%+ OF KLIPSCH FORUM MEMBERS WOULD BENEFIT FROM READING THAT THREAD...IF NOTHING ELSE, LEARN HOW FAR OFF YOUR AVR SETS YOUR SUBWOOFER DISTANCE THAN WHAT IT SHOULD BE!  

 

Your graph can look like WTF why is there this huge dip in the bass...then you change the delay on the SUB setting and like magic you have 15 more db and it's a flat response.  Miracle post imo.  

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Awww... good info Robo. Thanks for the link. I have my work cut out for me. This should be an addendum to REW 101.

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Sub # 3 and # 4 arrived. Not sure I can fit and balance another speaker in here. 7.6.4.  So Audessy, then pushing and pulling and sniffing for half-assed placement. Then measuring till my head explodes. I will be here on Dagobah till the force is strong within me.  

 

 Carry on. 

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