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Soundstage questions, what the heck is going on?


ACV92

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OK, here's the situation, I have the drivers out of my KG 5.5's, silicone is drying around the ports that I had to reseal, so I grabbed some two beer can high Advent speakers for some sound.  I used to use them as rears a long time ago.  Anyway, I set them on top of my empty 5.5 cabinets and I was pretty surprised by what I'm hearing.  With the baby Advent's the soundstage is cleaner, less localization of the sub tones.  The sub sounds like it's right in front of me, while it's placed in the left front corner.  I hate to admit it, as I'm sure most of you are cringing, but I'm actually pushing these little guys and kind of enjoying it.

 

They are nowhere as clear, or dynamic, as the 5.5's but what the heck is going on with soundstage effect?  I'm presuming that I have either some phase issues with the 5.5's, cancellation effects, the sub is crossed to high, etc.  But as I'm listening now, the soundstage is again, very surprising.  There's depth that I haven't noticed with the 5.5's while both sets of speakers are in the same relative position.  Is it due to more of a separation of the low frequencies considering the smaller cabinet/driver?

 

My other question, maybe more to the point, is the height of the speakers.  I notice that many of us, not all, have our floorstands, well, on the floor.  Does the height of the speaker make a substantial difference with staging effects?   If it does I might have to build some risers for the 5.5's.  I don't know where to go from here.  I just added Crites diaphragms to the 5.5's , my UMAX 15 cab is in primer waiting for a sanding, prime again, then on to paint.  Damn weather here in the Northwest has not been favorable for cabinet finishing.

 

The INUKE 3000DSP is still in it's plastic bag sitting where it will be when I actually get to use it.  Anyway, I've been studying and will have setup questions when I get there.  For the time being though, what are your thoughts with these little Advents? 

 

And yes, I have been drinking a little.  In case anyone is wondering...

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4 hours ago, ACV92 said:

They are nowhere as clear, or dynamic, as the 5.5's but what the heck is going on with soundstage effect?  I'm presuming that I have either some phase issues with the 5.5's, cancellation effects, the sub is crossed to high, etc.  But as I'm listening now, the soundstage is again, very surprising.  There's depth that I haven't noticed with the 5.5's while both sets of speakers are in the same relative position.  Is it due to more of a separation of the low frequencies considering the smaller cabinet/driver?

Usually a picture of your room as it stands will substitute for a thousand words...  If you can post one or two here, much more accurate responses are usually enabled by simply looking at the picture(s).

 

4 hours ago, ACV92 said:

My other question, maybe more to the point, is the height of the speakers.  I notice that many of us, not all, have our floorstands, well, on the floor.  Does the height of the speaker make a substantial difference with staging effects?

It can.  I think that most people don't look at their room/listening position(s) as part of a whole system, including the room's boundaries, nearby reflective surfaces that can diffract or confuse the listening experience, etc.. 

 

But again, guessing about what your setup looks like usually isn't a very good way to respond to your type of questions, in my experience.

 

Chris

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5 hours ago, ACV92 said:

I grabbed some two beer can high Advent speakers for some sound.  I used to use them as rears a long time ago.  Anyway, I set them on top of my empty 5.5 cabinets and I was pretty surprised by what I'm hearing.  With the baby Advent's the soundstage is cleaner, less localization of the sub tones.  The sub sounds like it's right in front of me, while it's placed in the left front corner.  I hate to admit it, as I'm sure most of you are cringing, but I'm actually pushing these little guys and kind of enjoying it.

Well, your Advents' drivers are at a minimum 40 inches to 47 inches from the floor so the soundstage height difference is obvious.  The bass is cleaner and less localized because of no floor reinforcement.  I am sure others can point out more reasons for the difference but I just mentioned what I noticed immediately.

 

Bill

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3 minutes ago, willland said:

Well, your Advents' drivers are at a minimum 40 inches to 47 inches from the floor so the soundstage height difference is obvious.  The bass is cleaner and less localized because of no floor reinforcement.  I am sure others can point out more reasons for the difference but I just mentioned what I noticed immediately.

 

Bill

Yes, and reflections will severely impact sound stage.  If you bring the speakers off the floor (to a point), the stage will typically open up because of at least two simple tings:

1 again reflections, room and floor boundaries

2 the positioning of the drivers relative to your ears will introduce phase issues. Simplistic discussion (and not so simplistic) http://www.rane.com/note160.html

 

There are other factors of course but these two are the ones that stand out.

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I've found that other acoustic issues dominate soundstage performance than the two postings listed above.  That's why a picture of your room is much better at identifying the source of the problems.

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, Chris A said:

I've found that other acoustic issues dominate soundstage performance than the two postings listed above.  That's why a picture of your room is much better at identifying the source of the problems.

 

Chris

 

Pictures always help... I am thinking, off the top of my head that the space between the two Advents my have fewer obstructions. When I had my old pair of LaScalas sitting with nothing between them (the speakers were on each side of an large opening into a hallway, so they were in corners on the left and right.) the wall was about four feet behind them between the speakers.

 

Bruce

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I agree with what all of you have said.  I'll post a picture later today.  Now, go easy on me when I do it's a bedroom setup that is seriously outdated, the bedroom and the equipment.  It's the last on our upgrade list.  I'd like to go over some constraints that I see that I have, valid or not, and see what you guys think I should do.  I have read some on room acoustics, bass traps, etc. but would definitely value your opinions.  In the meantime, I'm going to read the article that pzannucci referenced and then off to get some 400 grit to sand the Umax and finalize the priming process.  Thanks.   

 

 

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Sound stage / imaging is the province of higher frequencies.  The Baby Advents have comparably wide dispersion at higher frequencies, with different interactions with the room.  Floyd Toole goes into some detail about this in his book, about how we perceive reflected sound and it's effects on the sonic image.  It turns out that many folks like some room interaction, as it can help the sonic image detach from the physical locations of the speakers themselves.  The sweet spot is highly centralized on the mid-line beteen the speakers.

 

Horns, however, can do something that wide dispersion type speakers cannot, specifically producing a very stable sonic image (independent of the movements of the listener) via time-intensity trading.  This requires heavy toe-in to achieve, and works better the lower your speakers hold a pattern.  The resulting image has less "room" influence, and the image stability trick is something that wide dispersion speakers just cannot pull off.  The sweet spot covers much larger areas of the room, as well, where listeners well off to the left and right can still enjoy a rock solid stereo image.

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I had been experimenting with toe-in before I took the 5.5's apart.  My testing wasn't complete but had noticed a considerable improvement in the imaging.  The position I liked the most, so far, was with the axis about 1' on either side of my head.  Left axis 1' from left ear, Right axis 1' from right ear.  I know I need to send a couple of pics.  I'll do it as soon as I can because I do have some questions.

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It looks kind of odd, but try them toed in much further, with axis crossing several feet in front of your seat.  That's the only way that hard first reflections are completely side-stepped while later reflections are preserved, and the only way you can realize the time-intensity-trading aspect for that broad, super stable sweet spot.  The results will still be markedly different than with the small monitors, for sure, but that's the best way I've found horns to produce  incredible sonic holography.  As you listen and compare, I think you'll notice one approach can "bring the musicians into your room" so to speak, with relatively higher involvement with local acoustics, while the other method will "transport you to the venue," with relatively less involvement of local acoustics.

 

Chris authored a meaty thread about the imaging of corner horns that's worth wading through (it's long).

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5 hours ago, Chris A said:

I've found that other acoustic issues dominate soundstage performance than the two postings listed above.  That's why a picture of your room is much better at identifying the source of the problems.

 

Chris

Absolutely but since it doesn't sound like the initial positioning of the 5.5s was changed when the Advents were dropped on top, somewhat less a function of the location/room unless there is a window or something, but for sure, pics help.

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It turns out that it's much easier to describe the most important contributors to imaging issues from a photo than to try to describe what to look for in a general sense. Explanations in general require more descriptions and concepts.  This has the tendency to lose readers. 

 

Note that I have no issue going into those topics.  Those discussions include how humans process music and speech, because that's the reason why you hear better or worse sound-staging in room. 

 

For instance, if I mentioned that it's early reflections that interfere with soundstage, would you intuitively know all the things to look for?  Most people miss really big issues in-room because those things have become invisible to them in their mind's eye (but not hearing). It's much easier to work from a picture so that those otherwise invisible things are not missed during the discussion.

 

Chris

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OK Gents, here goes. Please don't shred me to bad, I'm a sensitive guy, well, sort of.  I've included pictures of the front of the room, back of the room, and a not to scale, remedial, overhead drawing.  The room is in essence completely open.  If you notice the walls to the bathroom and closet, left side on front of room pic, right side on back of room pic, they don't go completely to the ceiling.  So, I have to pressurize the whole space.  The room is roughly 519 sq. ft., 4455 cu. ft.  The ceilings are vaulted;  front and back of room measure 7' 7" to wall height, center of room 9' 7". 

 

Let's get this out of the way.  Yes, that is a CRT on top my stand.  As I've said in other posts I mainly listen to music up here.  That's a KV1 center on top of it.  When I switch to a wall mounted LCD I'll bring in the KV3 that I have.  I'm still working on a solution for surrounds, mainly placement. 

 

So, as to my issues, my dresser that resides in front of the sub and next to the left main needs to be moved.  I know this is causing early reflections of the left main and is affecting the soundstage, not to mention what it might be doing to the sub frequencies.  The sound dispersion tree, I'll sell you the plans for one for $1,000, could be swapped with the dresser.  The wife doesn't like it, but she doesn't sit up here as much as I do.  Anyway, I could keep going but I'd like to get your input/recommendations.  Thanks in advance.

 

58cdb8c386ab0_FrontofRoom.thumb.jpg.c98b0f1b04ad2ad8314a8d1776418d0d.jpg58cdb8ced6290_BackofRoom.thumb.jpg.d685817d18281d5c36802d5bbbfd8f61.jpg58cdb8e7aa1e0_RoomDrawing.thumb.png.f9c821e180eb3785ae2fe49cf082f73a.png

 

 

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I'm a firm believer in the "Jungle Diffusor" in our living room, and as a bonus it pukes out oxygen!

 

I think you're on the right track with regards to moving the dresser, and perhaps relocating the sub.  You'll have a bit more lateral wiggle room for the mains.  If you try the heavy toe in suggestion, you'll probably want move the speakers closer to the corners, for example.

 

If you move the sub you'll have to re-do the whole bass-crawl rigamarole, but you should be able to find a spot for it. I think you'll get some nice results if you have full use of the corners for your main speakers.  Take advantage of that.

 

Once you have the sub coupled to the room from the bass-crawl, and the speakers placed however works best, you could consider some more plants or wall treatments, if the room is too lively and reflective.  

 

Coffee tables and large tv stands between the speakers may not be ideal from an acoustics standpoint. 

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This is the view that you provided that really shows me your setup and sound stage environment:

Front of Room.jpg

 

As far as I can tell, the chest of drawers is the only thing that I'd move, and you've already mentioned that. 

 

The rest of the story is pretty benign: the stuff in the center between the loudspeakers looks to be fairly small and non-flat in shape (a good thing).  The table in front of your listening position--I'd try moving it out of the way and listening for 15-20 minutes.  You may be surprised by the change in your soundstage.  The reason is due to the lower height of the midrange/tweeters than is usual for a floor-stander.  Anything in the line of sight and having a large, flat top (like a glass or wood table top) is a re-reflector and if it is within a meter or two of either your listening position or your loudspeakers, you'll get a more confused sound stage. 

 

I assume that you've not toed-in your KG5.5s from the shown position.  If so, this is a significant factor in not getting a good soundstage.  Loudspeakers with good directivity control in the midrange require you to aim them toward the listening position or in front of the LP in order to get the full benefit of imaging.  This is a pretty big deal.  If you've toed them in before and not experienced a big increase in imaging and envelopment, then I'd certainly look to at least temporarily covering your center electronics (i.e., TV, center, and amplifier, etc.) with a quilt or comforter, then listening again for 15-20 minutes. Usually, most problems with toe in is due to having too many early reflections from between the loudspeakers.  Once you calm that down, the imaging can emerge from proper amounts of toe-in.

 

As far as the Advents are concerned, note that if they're on top of the KG 5.5s, they will have a better line of sight to your ears while seated.  The Advent midranges also have a wider dispersion/coverage (due to their direct radiating cones), such that not-toeing them in won't affect their sound as much as the KG5.5s. The Advents are actually showing you--right now--a glimpse of how much better the imaging could be.

 

I'd certainly consider raising the KG5.5s up about a foot or so using something solid or each side (i.e., no gaps underneath the loudspeaker that will kill your bass and midbass performance).  The closer you get to the corners, the more bass and midbass performance, but the issue of early midrange reflections will emerge. 

 

The only way to get the best of moving them closer to the corners is to place some absorption on the side walls and the front wall just next the midrange horn mouths on each side--about 2' x 2' squares of absorption.  You can tape up a thick blanket or quilt in those two areas temporarily on each side to hear the significant change in bass and center imaging performance.  If it works acoustically, then the task is to integrate something that your wife and you will accept for a longer term solution visually. 

 

In short, you don't have room problems, rather you appear to have loudspeaker placement and acoustic treatment issues.  Do the things suggested above--all of them--and you'll exceed the performance of the Advents in terms of soundstage and imaging...easily.

 

Chris

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Thanks, I appreciate the feedback!  I didn't stage the mains as I had them.  They're actually turned around backwards right now.  As I said before, the drivers are out, that's what's in the grocery bags on my coffee table.  I'm trying to keep critters, mainly our young cat, from using the cabinets as a play room and messing with the drivers on the table. 

 

Hypothetical, let's say I move the mains more to the corners, toe-in.  Setting the axes to where they cross in front of me would produce a better stage?  I'll have to give it a shot.  If I do the crawl test and find that the sub would be suitable next to one of the mains, between the stand and the speaker, do you see an issue with the windows directly behind either of those positions?  Originally, I had thought that having any speaker in front of a window is a bad thing.  Is it the resonance of a window compared to a wall that would cause issues?  If it's not a bad thing, I've got plenty of room for a sibling UMAX, the first one is close to being done.

 

Risers on the 5.5's makes absolute sense to me.  I feel that they would sound best if I was sitting on the floor with these.  With where my ears are when sitting, I'm above all center vertical axes.  I don't think I'm in the cancellation axis area but I've noticed that in many later Klipsch designs that the drivers are positioned high in the cabinets and typically have a greater overall cabinet height.  I think my next set of mains will be RF-7's.

 

Anyway, thanks again and I'll let you know what I come up with.    

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On 3/18/2017 at 6:24 PM, Chris A said:

This is the view that you provided that really shows me your setup and sound stage environment:

Front of Room.jpg

 

As far as I can tell, the chest of drawers is the only thing that I'd move, and you've already mentioned that. 

 

 

 

Chris

Yes, to my point about a window or some reflective surface, particularly that did not match or caused stray reflections.  Easy pick and easy to see why advents sitting on top of the 5.5s would likely image better.  Some additional help http://www.primacoustic.com/flexifuser/science/

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