NBS...

[tube fanatic]

Service guys like me could never have survived if designers/manufacturers didn't publish schematics of their products!  There is no excuse not to do so.  I know of one designer who takes the track that he doesn't offer schematics because they are all in his head (I do all of my design work in my head, and that makes it very easy to draw schematics since I don't need to refer to anything), and another uses a security screw on the bottom cover of his designs to prevent the owner from looking inside (doing so voids the warranty).  That's crap as far as I'm concerned, especially when the circuits are far from being proprietary.  

 

As was pointed out, no one is going to be around forever, and this information needs to be published.  Sure, it's possible to trace through a circuit and prepare a schematic; however, the cost of having to do that to service a piece of gear will be passed to the customer.   This is especially true where operating conditions are not those typically associated with a particular device- without having voltage/current references, transformer specs, and so on, a certain amount of speculation would be required.  And, if the unit is constructed on a pc board, and employs many solid state devices, the time involved in creating the schematic and figuring out the operating conditions can be huge.

 

My advice to anyone purchasing any kind of gear is to avoid those for which schematics and service info are not available (would you buy a car for which a shop manual isn't available necessitating going back to the dealer for all servicing?).

Maynard 

[DizRotus]

1 minute ago, tube fanatic said:

My advice to anyone purchasing any kind of gear is to avoid those for which schematics and service info are not available (would you buy a car for which a shop manual isn't available necessitating going back to the dealer for all servicing?).

 

I agree completely.  The problem is, he already has the NBS unit.  If asking its builder nicely for a schematic proves unsuccessful, then getting a Peach schematic, IMO, is of limited value.

[Schu]

8 hours ago, USNRET said:

Dude, what the heck does papered mean?

 

 

Lol... I cannot even fathom what I was trying to say. Auto spell check sucks, but my actual spelling sucks even worse.

 

 

[Schu]

2 hours ago, DizRotus said:

Michael-

 

I too am curious about your comment, "I would hate to own a tube papered."

Okay... after reading your post I remember now.

 

In relation to being able to service the unit...

 

"I would hate to own a Tube Paperweight"

[Thaddeus Smith]

9 hours ago, Schu said:

I didn't realize this would be such a polarizing subject even if there were some friction between Mark and Craig on this subject when they were first built years ago.

 

I am looking for support and information on my preamp so I am not completely in the dark as I go into the future of ownership.

 

I would hate to own a tube papered.

 

I think a great deal of the information was wiped during the great MD meltdown/temper tantrum of 2015 when he demanded all of his posts be deleted.

[Schu]

1 hour ago, tube fanatic said:

Service guys like me could never have survived if designers/manufacturers didn't publish schematics of their products!  There is no excuse not to do so.  I know of one designer who takes the track that he doesn't offer schematics because they are all in his head (I do all of my design work in my head, and that makes it very easy to draw schematics since I don't need to refer to anything), and another uses a security screw on the bottom cover of his designs to prevent the owner from looking inside (doing so voids the warranty).  That's crap as far as I'm concerned, especially when the circuits are far from being proprietary.  

 

As was pointed out, no one is going to be around forever, and this information needs to be published.  Sure, it's possible to trace through a circuit and prepare a schematic; however, the cost of having to do that to service a piece of gear will be passed to the customer.   This is especially true where operating conditions are not those typically associated with a particular device- without having voltage/current references, transformer specs, and so on, a certain amount of speculation would be required.  And, if the unit is constructed on a pc board, and employs many solid state devices, the time involved in creating the schematic and figuring out the operating conditions can be huge.

 

My advice to anyone purchasing any kind of gear is to avoid those for which schematics and service info are not available (would you buy a car for which a shop manual isn't available necessitating going back to the dealer for all servicing?).

Maynard 

That's a great post Manard...

 

Not only do I have an NBS with no schematic... I own an amplifier where "The schematic is locked inside my head"... and I did ask DH about a schematic.

[Thaddeus Smith]

2 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

Service guys like me could never have survived if designers/manufacturers didn't publish schematics of their products!  There is no excuse not to do so.  I know of one designer who takes the track that he doesn't offer schematics because they are all in his head (I do all of my design work in my head, and that makes it very easy to draw schematics since I don't need to refer to anything), and another uses a security screw on the bottom cover of his designs to prevent the owner from looking inside (doing so voids the warranty).  That's crap as far as I'm concerned, especially when the circuits are far from being proprietary.  

 

As was pointed out, no one is going to be around forever, and this information needs to be published.  Sure, it's possible to trace through a circuit and prepare a schematic; however, the cost of having to do that to service a piece of gear will be passed to the customer.   This is especially true where operating conditions are not those typically associated with a particular device- without having voltage/current references, transformer specs, and so on, a certain amount of speculation would be required.  And, if the unit is constructed on a pc board, and employs many solid state devices, the time involved in creating the schematic and figuring out the operating conditions can be huge.

 

My advice to anyone purchasing any kind of gear is to avoid those for which schematics and service info are not available (would you buy a car for which a shop manual isn't available necessitating going back to the dealer for all servicing?).

Maynard 

So uh, I can expect a schematic before you "retire"?

[thebes]

In olden days schematics were often included with the owners manual.  Nowadays, however, most tube amps are far from mass produced and their boutique designers have a proprietary air towards their designs, lest others poach them.  Granted there is very little new in the world of tube design to poach from. From what I understand, the basic topological and designs came along a long time ago, and most, if not all, designs today are offshoots or nuances on what came before.

 

I've heard (and now own) the NBS and I've heard more than one Blueberry and the NBS is the clear winner.  The NBS is far more than a simple copy of the Blueberry using point-to-point instead of a circuit board.

 

It's a shame Mark had his meltdown, and it's a shame that Klipsch kowtowed to him and agreed to strip out all his posts.  A lot of great information was lost when that happened.  Despite it all I'm still a fan of Mark's and certainly think the world of Craig.

[Tarheel]

1 hour ago, thebes said:

In olden days schematics were often included with the owners manual.  Nowadays, however, most tube amps are far from mass produced and their boutique designers have a proprietary air towards their designs, lest others poach them.  Granted there is very little new in the world of tube design to poach from. From what I understand, the basic topological and designs came along a long time ago, and most, if not all, designs today are offshoots or nuances on what came before.

 

I've heard (and now own) the NBS and I've heard more than one Blueberry and the NBS is the clear winner.  The NBS is far more than a simple copy of the Blueberry using point-to-point instead of a circuit board.

 

It's a shame Mark had his meltdown, and it's a shame that Klipsch kowtowed to him and agreed to strip out all his posts.  A lot of great information was lost when that happened.  Despite it all I'm still a fan of Mark's and certainly think the world of Craig.

I've never heard the NBS but have owned and sold a BB Extreme with Cream.  Kept my 25 year old QS as there was not enough gained to warrant the $1500 difference.

Marty could you elaborate on the "far more" when you get a chance?  As I recall neither party could describe much difference beyond the board/point to point.  Weren't both built around the 6h30?  I do recall the rca jacks were fragile on the BB.

[mike stehr]

2 hours ago, Schu said:

Not only do I have an NBS with no schematic... I own an amplifier where "The schematic is locked inside my head"... and I did ask DH about a schematic.

 

Can a guy get a schematic for the new version of Mac MC275?

 

[thebes]

1 hour ago, Tarheel said:

I've never heard the NBS but have owned and sold a BB Extreme with Cream.  Kept my 25 year old QS as there was not enough difference to warrant the $1500 difference.

Marty could you elaborate on the "far more" when you get a chance?  As I recall neither party could describe much difference beyond the board/point to point.  Weren't both built around the 6h30?  I do recall the rca jacks were fragile on the BB.

Mechanically, aside from what's already been mentioned ,the NBS has a beefier power transformer, and some of the components are better.  However, the major mechanical difference is that the Blueberry is not vented well at all, and that leads to heat buildup which has to shorten the life of the components over time.

 

Sonically the descriptors are a bit more difficult, but the NBS is certainly quieter.  The soundstage on both the BB and NBS is excellent as well as the overall detail.  The NBS has a bit deeper downstage, but the vague term "coherency" is what I would describe as the primary attribute.  The music is of a piece, but can be picked apart at leisure, and the overall musicality rests with the NBS. 

 

Caveat.  I listen primarily to wax, not plastic or zero-and-ones. My greatest direct experience  with these units are in GaryMD's system.  He had the Blueberry from the beginning, and also has the first-built NBS.  I have had quite a lot of listening time on both these iterations in his system and prefer the NBS.  Sadly he seldom posts here anymore, but if you PM him  I'm sure he'd be happy to expound on the differences.  I do know he also considers it quite an improvement over the BB.

 

In my own system the NBS replaced an Anthem Pre1, which is a wonderful pre-amp.  The difference was startling, and something I hadn't expected.

 

Now I do have a quibble over both of these amps and that's the so-called super tube.  I feel it sounds a bit SS to me.  At some point I will probably have Craig rewire to take the 6922 family of tubes, and then do some tube rolling.  However. I do not ever anticipate chasing down another pre-amp.  To me that part of my search for Audio Nirvosa is complete.

[Tarheel]

Thanks Marty.  Good review.  Put me down for the next available one and I'll pounce.  Didn't schu have two offers?  If I can get that person to contact me.  Do all NBS have phono stage?

[Schu]

there is one here in Vegas... it wasn't openly for sale, but the owner said he would sell it to me.

he wasn't sure about valuation either.

[thebes]

44 minutes ago, Tarheel said:

Thanks Marty.  Good review.  Put me down for the next available one and I'll pounce.  Didn't schu have two offers?  If I can get that person to contact me.  Do all NBS have phono stage?

I do believe there are a couple around that are line-stage only.

 

If Craig could get a few pre-orders available he'd build more, but barring that your going to have to go used.  He's got three grandkids he's now responsible for, and so he doesn't have enough spare capitol to make the substantial upfront purchases of components, cases etc. to build more.

[Marvel]

The first BB units only used the 6922, didn't they. They tend to be a bit noisy. Is Gary's  using that tube/flavor or the 6h30?

 

I had a BBX and a Merlin, but felt the Merlin sounded better, although it has no phono pre in it.

 

Bruce

[jwc]

I prefer the 6DJ8/6922 variety better if you spend a little money on the tube.

[richieb]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

The first BB units only used the 6922, didn't they. They tend to be a bit noisy. Is Gary's  using that tube/flavor or the 6h30?

 

I had a BBX and a Merlin, but felt the Merlin sounded better, although it has no phono pre in it.

 

Bruce

 

Ding Ding Ding Ding - he is right. 

Both the Peach and BB with 6922's were noisy no matter the quality of tube I used. For me, I could never figure the allure of JM preamps. Except as Bruce stated, the Merlin. That is a nice little preamp. Kinda sorry I let it go long ago but I can say that 'bout lots of gear. Most likely I'll have another. Anyone selling???

[jwc]

14 hours ago, Coytee said:

I've never heard the NBS so I have no clue and today, my Peach is pulled

 

I can remember many years ago I heard your 6922 variety older Peach with the Jubilee/K402 system, active EV Dx38, and don't remember noise or hiss.  It sounded great.  So what will be put in the Peach place for this system now.

 

So How in the heck did MD get in Stereophile with all this negative buzz?

 

I've had everything he made except the BBExt II.  I've had 2 of his Merlin.  2 of the older peach, and Peach II and older BBxExt.  Demoed his Pcats for awhile.  On the preamps, I always found a way with synergy equipment, cables and what not do get any annoyance out of the system.   Trust me, I'm not saying all this because I'm in love with him or something.   The Tercel is what I struggled with the most.  

 

The NBS is better regardless.  It sounded best with a Siemens Cca over the 6H30.  No regrets on that choice at all.

 

[muel]

My NBS is quieter than my Blueberry Extreme was.  My BB didn't take shipping well as some solder joints broke loose after shipment to the new owner.  I wound up paying for Craig to resolder and ship it back to the new owner.  I have no hate for the Blueberry to be clear!

[thebes]

15 hours ago, Marvel said:

The first BB units only used the 6922, didn't they. They tend to be a bit noisy. Is Gary's  using that tube/flavor or the 6h30?

 

I had a BBX and a Merlin, but felt the Merlin sounded better, although it has no phono pre in it.

 

Bruce

Gary started out with the super tube but had Craig switch it over to the 6DJ8 varients, where he used his Cca to great effect.  He also felt the super tube was ss sounding.