Poor Music Quality from MArantz 8801 w/ RF7 system

[dachuckster]

I had asked this years ago on AVS but never really got much of a response.

 

My Home Theatre system has the RF7 system (RF7 (2), RC7 (1), RS7 (2) and CDT5800 (2) in the ceiling for rear surround) with L/C/R speakers having the DeanG modded crossovers, a Marantz 8801 preamp and an Outlaw 7200 (200 wpc 7 ch amp). I also have the Outlaw LFM 1 EX subwoofer. I use either an Oppo 103 or a Sony CD changer for CDs.

 

In the living room I have an older basic Denon 3803 receiver driving 30 year old Kg4s (New titanium tweeter and Crites rebuilt crossovers).

 

Listening to music (CDs or records) the Kg4s sound much better to me. I have a newer Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB turntable that I have used in both systems.

 

The 8801 has the Multi EQ 32 XT I believe, while the Denon has basically nothing.

 

For movies, the 8801/RF7 speaker set up sounds ABSOLUTLEY AMAZING! But 2 ch music just does not seem to be the same quality.

 

Any suggestions?

[Gnote]

If you can try swapping the receivers to see if its the speakers, or receivers. Although it could be the room or other components , it's a good starting point. FWIW I've had 3 of the Denon 38xx recievers , I like their sound a lot ! 

[derrickdj1]

Gnote is on the right track, it may be the room and how to take a bit out of the equation.  First, you need some measurement of the FR, bass decay, reverb and standing waves problem in the room.  Are you running the speakers full range or use a sub?  These are all pieces of the puzzle.  What type of room is this setup in?

[CECAA850]

1 hour ago, dachuckster said:

For movies, the 8801/RF7 speaker set up sounds ABSOLUTLEY AMAZING! But 2 ch music just does not seem to be the same quality.

What about music videos?

[Schu]

Try listening to some 5.1 music and see if you feel the same

[garyrc]

All of the above is good advice, IMO.

 

I presume you ran Audyssey.  If any of your trims were set to -12 by Audyssey, you have no way of knowing whether Audyssey would have set them even lower if it could.  This is sometimes a problem with super efficient speakers like the RF7.  Since you have separates, you can run Audyssey with attenuators in the lines to get around this problem.

• Don't use DEQ for your 2 channel music.  If you listen at relatively low volume, turn up your sub, and use your Marantz bass control to season to taste (tone controls become available When you turn DEQ off.
• Try PL II Music or PL IIx Music with your 2 channel music to reconfigure it to a fairly good simulation of 5.1 or 7.1
• Read this.  It is the most comprehensive, clearest guide to Audyssey I have ever seen.  "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"
  
   

[AaronB123]

Perhaps you just don't like the sound of the Marantz. Personally I had one and I didn't much care for the sound either. I ended up getting rid of it pretty quickly. I first upgraded to a separate amp which improved it a bit but then later on ended up just getting rid of it all together. I never really cared for it's sound. I had the SR5011

[pzannucci]

Is it possible the 8801 does not use the active equalization when in 2 channel mode?  That is likely going to change the sound a lot.  At that point you have to decide what is flat.

[TomR]

try getting an older 2 channel recevier from the 80s  , it really woke up my chorus 2. I have an onkyo 717 that we tried on my sons belles and it sounded terrible, he had a denon and that sounded bad too. He had a friend come over with a old sony  integrated amp and the belles came alive so he bought the amp from his friend. For  Christmas my son got me a pioneer sx 780 that he had somebody go thru and  I hooked that up to an old pair of advents unti he can finish my chorus 2s and they sound awsome, I cant wait until he finishes the chorus s, all thats left is the grilles then I can bring them home.

[dachuckster]

Many good ideas here. The room is a large family room in a basement with some windows. I will try to upload some photos soon (Ive always had a hard time uploading them here).

 

#1 I would really rather NOT swap the receiver due to the complexity of the wiring. However, if I can find a spare receiver from a friend I can try it by hooking up the RF7 to that receiver and see how it sounds.

 

#2 I had a mid 80s NAD preamp (55 wpc) connected to the turntable and a set of Klipsch 1.5 (I believe that is the model, small bookshelfs) and set the speakers on top of the RF7s. Listening to LPs, the music was pretty damn good. I mean, REALLY GOOD!

 

#3 Not that I am a big John Mayer fan, but I do have his Blu Ray  "Where the light is" and the sound is STELLAR! I use that disc often to show how awesome my set up is. When I pop that in, my friends are in absolute shock how good my system sounds.

 

#4 I believe I am running the RF7 at full range, and have the Outlaw sub running with the cut off set at about 70 hz. The reason I have the RF7s running wide open is because they can handle and thrive on the massive power (so I've been lead to believe) from the Outlaw amp.

 

#5 I ran Audessy, several times, and as far as I know the settings are saved and in action regardless if it 7 channel or 2 channel.

 

I guess to me, 2 channel music sounds "okay", just not as good as what I think it should sound like considering how awesome movies, and 5.1 or 7.1 music DVDs (or Blu Rays) sound. I also have a Springsteen DVD, Blue Man Group DVD, and they sound pretty good too (not as god as John Mayer)

 

I will also try what Garyrc said and I will check out the Audessy link he provided.

 

 

 

 

[derrickdj1]

Running the speakers Large with the sub may cause some phase problems and cancellation.

[racebum]

turn off audyssey, use the graphic eq and set to your preference. sometimes it works and produces a pleasing sound. sometimes it doesn't. 75% of the time i turn it off as it's too midrange forward and pulls down the top end. whoever made the "ideal" must like flat speakers 

[willland]

7 hours ago, dachuckster said:

#3 Not that I am a big John Mayer fan, but I do have his Blu Ray  "Where the light is" and the sound is STELLAR! I use that disc often to show how awesome my set up is. When I pop that in, my friends are in absolute shock how good my system sounds.

One of my demo discs, CD and BD.  Nothing wrong with John Mayer, he is an incredible guitarist.

 

Bill

[pzannucci]

On 3/27/2017 at 0:35 AM, racebum said:

turn off audyssey, use the graphic eq and set to your preference. sometimes it works and produces a pleasing sound. sometimes it doesn't. 75% of the time i turn it off as it's too midrange forward and pulls down the top end. whoever made the "ideal" must like flat speakers 

I've heard mixed results.  Trust your ears not something that is automated trying to decide how you like your sound.  You can never be sure what the target response will be and how it actually measures without having an analyzer, and by the way, you still may not like it that way in the room.

[garyrc]

10 hours ago, pzannucci said:

I've heard mixed results.  Trust your ears not something that is automated trying to decide how you like your sound.  You can never be sure what the target response will be and how it actually measures without having an analyzer, and by the way, you still may not like it that way in the room.

 

My opinion, after working with room treatment and Audyssey correction in my HT for a few years:

 

Do any room treatments first, especially at the first reflection points (mirror test).  Don't overdo.  Try the minimum first, then try Audyssey.

 

Given your opportunities, trust your ears after running Audyssey carefully, then switching back and forth between Audyssey ON and Audyssey OFF.   Then, (some people would urge you to) run your system for a few weeks (depending on how often you listen) with either Audyssey ON or Audyssey OFF, then run it a few weeks with the other option.  That way, you can relax and just let the music wash over you, without your brain being in the judgement, A v.s. B, mode.   Either way, in my set-up, with Klipschorns, Audyssey ON sounds significantly clearer and better balanced than Audyssey OFF.  I usually use Audyssey FLAT, rather than plain Audyssey (often called Audyssey reference), because plain Audyssey rolls off too much treble (-2 dB at 10K, -6 dB at 20 K), but I have a highly treated room.

 

Before doing any of the above, read the link I gave you before,    "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"  The 30 minute reading time is well worth it.

 

The manual graphic EQ may work for you, but I doubt if it will be as good as Audyssey, since Audyssey uses hundreds of set points, as opposed to the few available in the manual graphic.  Don't use the base (not bass) copy function; it gives you a very crude "copy" of the Audyssey EQ, and was characterized as "useless," by the chief technical person at Audyssey.  I realize that there would be biases on both sides, but neither base copy nor the manual EQ worked as well as Audyssey for me.

 

It might be helpful to know that virtually everyone who uses Audyssey finds that the bass is not quite loud enough; most people turn their subs up a few dB after running Audyssey.  Explanations range from us having fallen in love with room peaks in the bass that Audyssey removes, to horrible mastering by the recording companies (see Chris A's long thread on this).

 

The variable results pzannucci mentioned are sometimes due to mic placement.  Your mic placement will vary depending on whether you are going to want to optimize for one person (clustered mics), or several people spread out over several seats (spread out mics; not too wide!).  Be sure to use all 8 mic positions either way.

 

Don't forget, if Audyssey sets any of your trims to -12, you have no way of knowing whether Audyssey would have set them even lower if it could.  This is sometimes a problem with super efficient speakers like the RF7.  Since you have separates, you can run Audyssey with attenuators in the lines to get around this problem. There is a way to remove the attenuators later -- let me know if you need to know that.

 

People vary in how much they like Audyssey's "extras."  I don't like Dynamic EQ (it could be the default on your pre/pro, so watch out.  To me (and some others) it makes the sound less clear.  I would rather use the bass control, which becomes available when you turn OFF DEQ.  I don't like Dynamic Volume either.  I don't have bass containment, but I doubt if I'd like that, either. 

 

The Audyssey FAQ should give you almost all the ins and outs -- and it's free.  If you are tempted to buy an analyzer, look at REW (online) first.  It is also free, but you will need a calibrated mic (not the Audyssey mic), at about $100, and you should replicate the Audyssey mic positions, and average them.  My use of REW has been interesting, but not particularly helpful.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

[pzannucci]

The rational for my previous post was that you have to understand the target curve.  Without that, you are accepting that what the system is doing for you, you will be happy with.

I myself like a little more meat on the bones of the output (extended deep bass sans sub) with warmish midbass.  open midrange and tapered off high treble.  Definitely kill the peak between 3Khz and 5Khz which is usually considered good for making movies intelligible.  Once you understand what you like in output, you know what your target curve should look like and program it in and have it done automatically, tailor your room for it, build your speakers for it, or eq to your heart's content.  The key is knowing what is wrong (wrong and right is different to everybody) and attacking that.

 

As garyrc says, get your room correct then move on from there.  Most of my suggestions above are doing it from the ground up so your mileage may vary.  

[racebum]

21 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

 

The manual graphic EQ may work for you, but I doubt if it will be as good as Audyssey, since Audyssey uses hundreds of set points, as opposed to the few available in the manual graphic. 

 

21 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

 

good how? if a guy likes 30hz a couple db hot you can't adjust that, what about a couple db down in the 1-3khz range? can't adjust that. maybe +1-2 at 16khz, can't adjust that either. audyssey gives you a pre packaged sound you may or may not like. it's not so much about being "good" whatever that even is. it's about personal preference in the tone the sound comes across. audyssey does not often re create a live sound. it's too midrange forward. this can be helpful with understanding movies but it doesn't really sound natural and music can become very colored.

 

i've also noticed that it seems to make a more pleasing sound in large rooms vs smaller ones which have a lot of secondary harmonics and reflections 

 

it's a great room setup tool but the way it reproduces sound just does not fit a lot of speakers. b&w is one that it tries to equalize out and it changes their natural sound. b&w often runs the bottom end slightly hot, drops the midrange and ramps up the tweeter. when you run audyssey it will try and flatten that out which just kills the sound 

21 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

 

[garyrc]

4 hours ago, racebum said:

 

good how? if a guy likes 30hz a couple db hot you can't adjust that, what about a couple db down in the 1-3khz range? can't adjust that. maybe +1-2 at 16khz, can't adjust that either. audyssey gives you a pre packaged sound you may or may not like. it's not so much about being "good" whatever that even is. it's about personal preference in the tone the sound comes across. audyssey does not often re create a live sound. it's too midrange forward. this can be helpful with understanding movies but it doesn't really sound natural and music can become very colored.

 

i've also noticed that it seems to make a more pleasing sound in large rooms vs smaller ones which have a lot of secondary harmonics and reflections 

 

it's a great room setup tool but the way it reproduces sound just does not fit a lot of speakers. b&w is one that it tries to equalize out and it changes their natural sound. b&w often runs the bottom end slightly hot, drops the midrange and ramps up the tweeter. when you run audyssey it will try and flatten that out which just kills the sound 

 

 

Audyssey has long maintained that they are shooting for "Reference, not Preference." 

 

BUT

 

As I said previously, virtually all Audyssey users boost the bass a little after running Audyssey.  Some research (one such study was done at Harmon, I think) indicates that most people prefer a bass rise over flat, and they pick a curve with a bass rise as being flat.  if somebody is using a subwoofer, they can boost the frequencies from 20 Hz to the crossover (usually 80 Hz, but also possible at 60 Hz and 40 Hz) up a couple of dB -- or much more -- by simply turning the sub up after running Audyssey.

 

As long as DEQ is turned off, one can use the bass tone control to boost bass in the LF and RF, after running Audyssey.  If someone is using a sub, as well, they can use the bass control to boost frequencies above the sub crossover, and the sub trim on their pre/pro or AVR, or the sub gain knob on the sub itself to boost frequencies below the sub crossover.  I have painstakingly adjusted my Klipschorn system that way, and get a boost of about + 3 dB at the top of the bass range (~~ 200 Hz), about + 5 dB at 100 Hz, +8 dB at 80 Hz (the crossover point without the usual crossover dip), and about +9.5 dB below 80 Hz, until the sub rolls off (Audyssey itself will not boost below a speaker's F3 point).  If not using a sub, most tone controls reach down to 20 Hz, or below.

 

As to "a couple db down in the 1-3khz range," if you select Audyssey Reference it provides exactly that, calling it "midrange compensation," 2 dB down, centered at 2KHz.  People have compared this to the "BBC dip."  On my system, in a large room with Khorns, it also cuts out a peak at about 8 K Hz, then provides "+1-2 at 16khz," except it's more like + 3 dB at 16K Hz electrical referenced to the usual 0 dB center at 1K Hz, which produces a  droop of about 3 dB acoustical at 16K from the main listening position, some 16 feet away, in keeping with the cinema roll off Aud. Ref. is supposed to produce.  With the other option, Audyssey Flat, there is no midrange comp, but the 8 K peak is reduced, and a greater boost is provided at 16K.  It sounds great!  It does sound like live music to me, more so than without it. True, YMMV.

 

The DEQ option was intended for movies, not for 2 channel music.  Most manuals give the user some hints on how to adapt it to 2 channel.  People seem to either love it or hate it.  We have been showing about 2 movies per week for a few years, and I have only left it on once ... I guess I'm in the latter group. Dynamic Volume is just plain evil, if you like dynamics, but a sometime necessary one if you have a sleeping baby, or poorly designed, thin apartment walls.

 

I think of Audyssey as a good, relatively smooth starting point for further tuning with tone controls, etc., or perhaps a good parametric equalizer, but it turns out I didn't need the latter.

 

Audyssey has said it will provide an App sometime this spring that will allow some tuning to "Preference."  Hopefully there will be a firmware upgrade that will allow it to be used with pre/pros & AVRs already sold.

 

 

[racebum]

1 hour ago, garyrc said:

 

Audyssey has long maintained that they are shooting for "Reference, not Preference." 

 

BUT

 

As I said previously, virtually all Audyssey users boost the bass a little after running Audyssey.  Some research (one such study was done at Harmon, I think) indicates that most people prefer a bass rise over flat, and they pick a curve with a bass rise as being flat.  if somebody is using a subwoofer, they can boost the frequencies from 20 Hz to the crossover (usually 80 Hz, but also possible at 60 Hz and 40 Hz) up a couple of dB -- or much more -- by simply turning the sub up after running Audyssey.

 

As long as DEQ is turned off, one can use the bass tone control to boost bass in the LF and RF, after running Audyssey.  If someone is using a sub, as well, they can use the bass control to boost frequencies above the sub crossover, and the sub trim on their pre/pro or AVR, or the sub gain knob on the sub itself to boost frequencies below the sub crossover.  I have painstakingly adjusted my Klipschorn system that way, and get a boost of about + 3 dB at the top of the bass range (~~ 200 Hz), about + 5 dB at 100 Hz, +8 dB at 80 Hz (the crossover point without the usual crossover dip), and about +9.5 dB below 80 Hz, until the sub rolls off (Audyssey itself will not boost below a speaker's F3 point).  If not using a sub, most tone controls reach down to 20 Hz, or below.

 

As to "a couple db down in the 1-3khz range," if you select Audyssey Reference it provides exactly that, calling it "midrange compensation," 2 dB down, centered at 2KHz.  People have compared this to the "BBC dip."  On my system, in a large room with Khorns, it also cuts out a peak at about 8 K Hz, then provides "+1-2 at 16khz," except it's more like + 3 dB at 16K Hz electrical referenced to the usual 0 dB center at 1K Hz, which produces a  droop of about 3 dB acoustical at 16K from the main listening position, some 16 feet away, in keeping with the cinema roll off Aud. Ref. is supposed to produce.  With the other option, Audyssey Flat, there is no midrange comp, but the 8 K peak is reduced, and a greater boost is provided at 16K.  It sounds great!  It does sound like live music to me, more so than without it. True, YMMV.

 

The DEQ option was intended for movies, not for 2 channel music.  Most manuals give the user some hints on how to adapt it to 2 channel.  People seem to either love it or hate it.  We have been showing about 2 movies per week for a few years, and I have only left it on once ... I guess I'm in the latter group. Dynamic Volume is just plain evil, if you like dynamics, but a sometime necessary one if you have a sleeping baby, or poorly designed, thin apartment walls.

 

I think of Audyssey as a good, relatively smooth starting point for further tuning with tone controls, etc., or perhaps a good parametric equalizer, but it turns out I didn't need the latter.

 

Audyssey has said it will provide an App sometime this spring that will allow some tuning to "Preference."  Hopefully there will be a firmware upgrade that will allow it to be used with pre/pros & AVRs already sold.

 

 

 

does reference actually pop the top end? in the menu the wording eludes to a roll off. hmm i may have to go play with this. i agree with where your statement is coming from just wish they would allow a little parametric adjustment to what's been done. from what i understand audyssey pro does but not the consumer level offerings.

 

the bass comment is absolutely true and really so is the rest. most people really don't like flat speakers even though they may say they do. they want that low end rise, the slight midrange dip and a little pop on top. when you look at popular speaker brands like the B&W i mentioned their response curves at 1m are exactly that. a bit of bass. midrange drop and a tweeter that ramps up 

[garyrc]

4 hours ago, racebum said:

 

does reference actually pop the top end? in the menu the wording eludes to a roll off. hmm i may have to go play with this. i agree with where your statement is coming from just wish they would allow a little parametric adjustment to what's been done. from what i understand audyssey pro does but not the consumer level offerings.

 

the bass comment is absolutely true and really so is the rest. most people really don't like flat speakers even though they may say they do. they want that low end rise, the slight midrange dip and a little pop on top. when you look at popular speaker brands like the B&W i mentioned their response curves at 1m are exactly that. a bit of bass. midrange drop and a tweeter that ramps up 

In my room, with my speakers (AK-4 stock upgraded Klipschorns (the 2002 revision) R & L, Modified Belle Klipsch center) both Aud. Reference and Aud Flat pop the top end, electrically.  You're correct, the intent of Aud Reference is to roll off the top end acoustically, so that the in-room target response becomes -2 dB at 10K and -6 dB at 20K.  Because my Main Listening Position is slightly off-axis to both Khorns (mic position #1) and most of the other mic positions are off-axis to at least one of the Khorns, and because the Khorn tweeters (K-77 F) do tend to droop a bit off-axis, to achieve that in-room target, Audyssey Reference's smoothing comprises a net boost, rather than a net cut to the frequencies of 10K and above, particularly at 16K.  With Aud FLAT, of course, the frequencies above 10K are boosted even more, on the average.  If our couch was several feet closer, so several of the mic positions were on axis, or nearer to it, both boosts would probably be less.   

 

Hopefully, customizing the curve will be easy for those who get the App.

 

The only graph of my room response I have access to right now (due  to a computer crash) is this one, in which I really overdid the bass boost.  It started as Audyssey FLAT.   This much bass was O.K. for some music and some movies, but positively frightening with some films!  As you can see, I ran a zillion curves that day, but the only one printed (signified by check marks) was this one.  The Blue one is one Klipschorn, the purple one the sub and the compound one (green + the others) the result.  My final (LOL) curve, unlike this one, pulled down the bass to about the level of the combined response at 24 Hz, and punched it up a bit above 125 Hz.