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CDinMB

Going to demo Cornwall 2 and La Scala i, what look for?

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2 hours ago, dtel said:

Looking  good, smart choice. imo

 

Must be tough just looking at them, almost anything will make them play for now, old car radio laying around.:D

Just get an el-cheapo portable personal CD player, take the included el cheapo headphones...clip off the headphone wires at the headset...separate them and do a wire-to-wire splice to some lamp cord, and run the lascalas that way...you will be surprised at what you hear!  I call this my personal interim separates for unpowered speakers...trust me...it will be a total surprise, especially when the wife actually HEARS how efficient Klipsch speakers are when being powered by the out-put of a headphone jack on a el cheapo portable battery-powered CD player...she will NEVER BELIEVE IT!

 

You won't be rockin' the neighborhood, but you WILL be rockin' that room!

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Hope this isn't sacrilege!  

1 hour ago, HDBRbuilder said:

Just get an el-cheapo portable personal CD player, take the included el cheapo headphones...clip off the headphone wires at the headset...separate them and do a wire-to-wire splice to some lamp cord, and run the lascalas that way...you will be surprised at what you hear!  I call this my personal interim separates for unpowered speakers...trust me...it will be a total surprise, especially when the wife actually HEARS how efficient Klipsch speakers are when being powered by the out-put of a headphone jack on a el cheapo portable battery-powered CD player...she will NEVER BELIEVE IT!

 

You won't be rockin' the neighborhood, but you WILL be rockin' that room!

Most excellent!  I just hope it isn't sacrilege! Not the best source but at least there is music here! You are right they are amazingly loud.

 

 

IMG_1908.JPG

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39 minutes ago, CDinMB said:

Most excellent!  I just hope it isn't sacrilege! Not the best source but at least there is music here! You are right they are amazingly loud.

 

I said that because I did the same thing as your doing once, sacrilege no, but if you put a bose emblem on the front were going to have a problem. :D

 

I would bet you two will be very happy with those, wait until you hear them in your house, be careful they can hurt your ears before they start to sound distorted.

 

 

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Probably should put new capacitors in the crossover but they look awesome. If you get one of those little boom boxes from the wallmart or target and hook up to them it will get LOUD.

 Had power outage here onetime and ran pair Heresys with one on battery power. It had wires going to removable speakers so it was easy to hook to Heresys. Or just buy a real cheap receiver for now probably be better.

http://www.parts-express.com/kinter-ma-500-4-channel-mini-amplifier-with-remote-usb-mp3-media-card-fm-4x30w--310-374   here you go cheaper than a boom box.

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13 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:

Just get an el-cheapo portable personal CD player, take the included el cheapo headphones...clip off the headphone wires at the headset...separate them and do a wire-to-wire splice to some lamp cord, and run the lascalas that way...you will be surprised at what you hear!  I call this my personal interim separates for unpowered speakers...trust me...it will be a total surprise, especially when the wife actually HEARS how efficient Klipsch speakers are when being powered by the out-put of a headphone jack on a el cheapo portable battery-powered CD player...she will NEVER BELIEVE IT!

 

You won't be rockin' the neighborhood, but you WILL be rockin' that room!

I'm glad you said this!  No one believes me when I talk about how little power is needed with most Klipsch speakers, especially when they are installed in small to medium size rooms.  Your comment reminds me of when I used to demo K-horns using a 6 transistor radio capable of no more than 50-60 milliwatts output from its earphone jack..  

 

When it comes to tube amps (since SS amps are so cheap in comparison, high power doesn't cost much as we all know), I simply cannot understand why anyone thinks they need to invest in something offering 50+ watts/channel when their actual power need is no more than 1/10 that amount under their loudest listening conditions.

 

Maynard

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On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 7:11 AM, tube fanatic said:

 I simply cannot understand why anyone thinks they need to invest in something offering 50+ watts/channel when their actual power need is no more than 1/10 that amount under their loudest listening conditions.

 

Maynard

Just my own opinion, BUT...many people, even here on this forum, don't realize...OR even CARE that going for high-power amplification is not needed with highly-efficient speakers.  So many people, ESPECIALLY now-a-days, have adopted the "bigger is better" rule on EVERYTHING, and it is ruling their lives and unnecessarily taking money out of their pockets for way more of what they purchase than they will ever realize.

 

Many also don't realize that the one thing that PWK worked on for his entire audio-related life was finding ways to REDUCE total harmonic distortion (THD) levels.  This was very important to him, and he didn't just do his best to apply this towards speaker design but to find ways to apply it to the upstream components, and look for solutions.

 

It is pretty-much a "given" that whenever an amplifier (ESPECIALLY in solid state construction!) can put out MORE wattage in power than another one which is basically the SAME design...from the SAME manufacturer...the THD numbers are also increased.  The less distortion, the better!  Distortion takes away from the speaker signal input by CHANGING it in the stream prior to its final conversion to audible sound.  Since PWK was in the speaker business end of things, and highly-desired less distortion coming from those speakers, he started his work at that end of things.  But he was also ham-stringed by production costs, and other variables (shipping costs, dealer mark-ups and such) which could not go too high or else he would end up OUT of the speaker manufacturing business.

 

There is always some kind of trade-off when you run a manufacturing business.

 

I always wonder why so many people with efficient speakers totally IGNORE the max RMS watt input FOR those efficient speakers, and then gripe to high heaven about the damage that results!  It is kinda like the person who brags about how many horsepower his vehicle engine makes, and TOTALLY ignores the at the wheel torque ratings and the gear ratios in the transmission...then wonders why a Kia eats his lunch!

 

My analogy on wattage/efficiency goes like this:  Having to brag about how many watts your (amplifier) system is rated at is akin to bragging about getting 2 miles to a gallon in your vehicle.  Either way you are using way more ENERGY than is required to accomplish the task. Efficiency IS conservation of energy.

 

BUT...we live in a society where MANY people think it is better to destroy their hearing with highly distorted bass while driving around and shaking loose all the fasteners holding that car together...not to mention destroying their hearing.  DISTORTION in what you listen to does way more hearing damage than lack of distortion at the at the same listening volume.  Let them do what they want...but I DO NOT want my tax money to have to pay for all the hearing aids that will be needed down the road to stupidity of those who are doing it.

 

Here is my investment advice:  Buy stock in every hearing aid company and get rich for your retirement!  This is a no-brainer!

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On 3/30/2017 at 8:11 AM, tube fanatic said:

I'm glad you said this!  No one believes me when I talk about how little power is needed with most Klipsch speakers, especially when they are installed in small to medium size rooms.  Your comment reminds me of when I used to demo K-horns using a 6 transistor radio capable of no more than 50-60 milliwatts output from its earphone jack..  

 

When it comes to tube amps (since SS amps are so cheap in comparison, high power doesn't cost much as we all know), I simply cannot understand why anyone thinks they need to invest in something offering 50+ watts/channel when their actual power need is no more than 1/10 that amount under their loudest listening conditions.

 

Maynard

Glad you said this.  

Next question is good amps to pair with these?  Not sure why, nostalgia maybe, I am scouting MC30/40s and MC225/40 as a backup.  I understand the significant difference between SS rec and tube rec in the 30 and 40. I have read a lot of opinions on them but haven't heard either so I am not sure which I would like.  Based on what I've read, I would be picking the loose bottom and warm mid (MC30s) or tight bass and neutral mids (MC40s).  

 

All my guitar amps are tube, some are vintage 50/60s.  I only play my Mesa with SS rec when practicing, but always go to my '65 Deluxe Reverb or 50s Tweed for tone.  All are great amps, but entirely different sound. I enjoy the roundness and sag of tube rec in a guitar amp. Just not sure if that is best for reproducing all instruments. I also build my own amps so I am not afraid of tube circuit repairs, etc.  

 

I understand big tube numbers (Wpc) aren't needed for the LSi.  Given their design trade offs, I don't know if these older designs are still the best for music reproduction today.  Are there other options, that are better, cost effective, adaptable to old and new music sources? Most important question is, do any newer designs capture the mid range warmth of a 30 while still able to track the transients and control the bass like a 40?  Not an easy question.  Most of my research has brought up discussions from 2010 or older and any new articles only talk about the new MC275 which is way more than I need or want to spend.

 

So is it safe to assume the MC30/40 are still good amp pairings for my size room and the LSi?  Or I hesitate to say it, bi amp the LSi.  My wife would shoot me!

 

 

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Well I recently got a recapped Dynaco ST70 and love it. I run it on recapped LaScalas with a HK730 as a preamp. I also love the sound of HK430- 730-630s alone.

  I was going to order Dennis Had   Inspire Amp but the Dynaco came to me in way of a trade and cash for my Mac solid state amp. Been listening to a lot of my music I can see why this amp is so popular.

 

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I've written on this previously, but you should definitely consider the MC225.  I own MC30's, and an MC240, and continue to play the 225 more often.  JMHO.

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35 minutes ago, CDinMB said:

Glad you said this.

Next question is good amps to pair with these?  Not sure why, nostalgia maybe, I am scouting MC30/40s and MC225/40 as a backup.  I understand the significant difference between SS rec and tube rec in the 30 and 40. I have read a lot of opinions on them but haven't heard either so I am not sure which I would like.  Based on what I've read, I would be picking the loose bottom and warm mid (MC30s) or tight bass and neutral mids (MC40s).  

 

All my guitar amps are tube, some are vintage 50/60s.  I only play my Mesa with SS rec when practicing, but always go to my '65 Deluxe Reverb or 50s Tweed for tone.  All are great amps, but entirely different sound. I enjoy the roundness and sag of tube rec in a guitar amp. Just not sure if that is best for reproducing all instruments. I also build my own amps so I am not afraid of tube circuit repairs, etc.

 

I understand big tube numbers (Wpc) aren't needed for the LSi.  Given their design trade offs, I don't know if these older designs are still the best for music reproduction today.  Are there other options, that are better, cost effective, adaptable to old and new music sources? Most important question is, do any newer designs capture the mid range warmth of a 30 while still able to track the transients and control the bass like a 40?  Not an easy question.  Most of my research has brought up discussions from 2010 or older and any new articles only talk about the new MC275 which is way more than I need or want to spend.

 

So is it safe to assume the MC30/40 are still good amp pairings for my size room and the LSi?  Or I hesitate to say it, bi amp the LSi.  My wife would shoot me!

One variable you MAY NOT have considered is that the Woofers in your INDUSTRIAL LaScalas are (or SHOULD BE!) the K43, and not the K33.  The K43 is in them in order to handle MORE POWER, but its trade-off is that it does NOT go as LOW  (plus or minus 3dB) as the K33 woofer can go.  If you are using low wattage power the K33 would be a better choice...but you may NOT actually HEAR MUCH AUDIBLE difference between the two types of woofers, simply because the Bass Horn Lens of the LaScala is not designed to hit the Lower spectrum which the Cornwall can get to with its ported enclosure and its K33 woofers.  But the option is still there to make the change to the K33.

 

You're use of tube amps of various types in your guitar endeavors kinda reminds me of Joe Walsh.  HE is a huge proponent of tubed guitar amps and actually mic-ing them in the recording studio...simply because between the differences in the drivers and the amplifier sections in the tube guitar amps will ALSO provide the desired sound differences sought in the track overlays he tends to use when recording.  He is EXTREMELY knowledgeable about this...and he is also Extremely knowledgeable about the TUBES used and the differences ones from different sources provide when rolled into those amp sections.  Most people don't realize that he has been an avid ham radio nut since he was a kid...still is...and it was TUBES which he "cut his teeth on" electronically-speaking.  So he has a wealth of knowledge in that spectrum.

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My stereo VRD's produce around 45 watts and sound great... more than enough watts for the La Scalas.  The 65 watt monoblocks have the same sound but are more solid on the low end and are a bit more life like as a result.  Some times more watts are more gooder. :)  

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Congrats man! I love my Scalas, and I'm sure you'll love yours too for years to come. I've owned most of the Heritage line, and the La Scalas are my favorite of the bunch.

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1 hour ago, HDBRbuilder said:

One variable you MAY NOT have considered is that the Woofers in your INDUSTRIAL LaScalas are (or SHOULD BE!) the K43, and not the K33.  The K43 is in them in order to handle MORE POWER, but its trade-off is that it does NOT go as LOW  (plus or minus 3dB) as the K33 woofer can go.  If you are using low wattage power the K33 would be a better choice...but you may NOT actually HEAR MUCH AUDIBLE difference between the two types of woofers, simply because the Bass Horn Lens of the LaScala is not designed to hit the Lower spectrum which the Cornwall can get to with its ported enclosure and its K33 woofers.  But the option is still there to make the change to the K33.

 

You're use of tube amps of various types in your guitar endeavors kinda reminds me of Joe Walsh.  HE is a huge proponent of tubed guitar amps and actually mic-ing them in the recording studio...simply because between the differences in the drivers and the amplifier sections in the tube guitar amps will ALSO provide the desired sound differences sought in the track overlays he tends to use when recording.  He is EXTREMELY knowledgeable about this...and he is also Extremely knowledgeable about the TUBES used and the differences ones from different sources provide when rolled into those amp sections.  Most people don't realize that he has been an avid ham radio nut since he was a kid...still is...and it was TUBES which he "cut his teeth on" electronically-speaking.  So he has a wealth of knowledge in that spectrum.

I am with Joe on rolling tubes in amps.  I have a box of preamp tubes that I swap out to get the tone I want. I am not an expert, just know what sounds good to me. 

 

The pics of drivers I have are K77 and K55M with a LSI stamp, which are the high and mid range? That was something I did not know! Thanks!

 

So more power may be more better.

 

 

 

IMG_1905.PNG

Edited by CDinMB

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Yes, K77 = high, K55 = mid.

 

Have not seen that LSI stamp before.

 

More power is not necessarily more better.  I have powered my LSI's with a 15 watt tube amp (EL84), and it was awesome.

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K55 and K77 are identical to NON-INDUSTRIAL drivers.  It is the woofer in the bass bin that is different.  The "M" on the K55 identifies it as having a "mud" magnet....meaning it is compressed and baked from a magnetic ceramic "mud" slurry.  Its predecessor was an alnico-magnet version of the K-55 driver.  Your LSI crossover also has tweeter protection built into it...so that the tweeter will not blow under higher wattage Industrial use.

 

But none of this has anything to do with "more power being better"...the opposite is in fact more truthful.

 

ME?...if just being used for non-industrial applications, I would revert back to the K33 woofer.  And I would opt for an amplifier that put out 100 or fewer watts RMS per channel for all channels driven.  IOW...it you are running a center channel, or surrounds...they would be driven at the same wattage.  Running a Subwoofer is a whole different story, though...unless it includes its own amplifier

 

MOST OF THE TIME...you will be pulling way less than what the amp is capable of giving...no matter what application you are using the LaScala for....that is why you don't really NEED the high wattage to begin with on efficient speakers like LaScalas.  25-50 clean watts is MORE than enough!  And...the speakers will likely not even use much more that 5 watts MOST OF THE TIME....and MOST of those watts will be going to the WOOFERS, since they will be the ones using most of it.

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@CDinMB  if you decide to go with K33's, please let me know, as I will buy your K43's.  Where are you located by the way?  I may have missed it.

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12 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

@CDinMB  if you decide to go with K33's, please let me know, as I will buy your K43's.  Where are you located by the way?  I may have missed it.

I will wait to hear them with a proper amp.  I loved them in the demo which was not the ideal amp or setting, so I am expecting to love them here.   I am retired in Melbourne, Florida.  I agree with more power isn't always better.  Hence why am looking at Mac 225, 30, 40s. The Dynaco ST was always a well respected amp.  A friend had one and it sounded great.  Finding any of these in reliable working order locally is the trick. 

 

Any other current designs as options?

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Can't help with tube advice.

But completely agree with not needing high power, when I first set up our yard speakers (split Lascala tops with mwm bottoms) I use a old T-amp, the cheap model powered by a little wall transformer instead of batteries.  I was really surprised at the volume with less than 10 WPC, over 100 Db at 50'. Once I hooked a old HK 930 just for fun, it was shocking, you could hear the music reflecting off the pine trees on the side of the property 500' away. 

 

Any of the quality amps your thinking about should sound amazing in your house without ever reaching half volume. Can't wait to hear what you think with a good amp, you will look like this...... :D

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you can make those speakers look pretty should you want to. i have refinished some with an industrial finish using auto paint. basecoat clearcoat in a pure black. the clearcoat gives it a lacquer appearance. the wood will soak up a lot of paint but it can be minimized getting a good clearcoat seal first to put paint on top of. it will take quite a few hours but you could have a set of perfect gloss black {or any other color} speakers

 

also agree on recapping. try and keep the ESR similar to original. crites would probably be a place to look for what caps work well. from what i remember he used sonicap. the ESR of a cap can affect the sound of a speaker. 

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