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avguytx

Belle clone project. Finished and stored away for awhile.

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Since a fellow forum member had some parts I needed, I'll finally get to start on my Belle clones sometime in the next month...hopefully.  The grill assembly, K-501's, K-55's, and Type A crossovers will be in tomorrow and will reside by the K-33 woofers and CT120's till start time.  Very excited to get them started and will be buying new saw blades for the Baltic Birch cabinets.  I figure that's about the best as there's no good plywood locally at Lowes, etc.  

 

Still not sure about the Cornwalls after a month of listening. They do sound very good, but, they don't "best" my CF-3's in my living room. Even my wife, who could care less plus has better hearing than me, said they sound "nice" but not like the others. So, most likely they will move along here soon. I sure wish I didn't have tinnitus where things I know sound good, I could hear them like they actually do. My mind has to recreate what it once knew in the past. 

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I'll start another thread for it but if anyone is interested in the Cornwalls, I'm about 2.5 hours from Hope and could possibly bring them down on that Saturday.

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Ok, so I'm deliberating on what would be required if I decide to go 2-way on the Belle.  If I decide to buy K510/K691 (?), is there a passive crossover network I can work with or someone who has built one that would share the diagram?  I don't really want to go active...I just want a passive network for running off of a single tube amp.  What's the normal price out there for  these parts?  PM me if it's not allowed in the forum.

 

Is the K510/K691 combo referred to, or ordered as, the KPT-904-HF?

 

Another option is the Fatial Pro HF140 with the LTH142 horn.  Bob Crites has mentioned he could do a passive 2-way for  those as he uses something similar, or exact, in the Cornscala D.  

 

Again, I'm trying to keep this kind of reasonable.  If I go 2-way, I'd just sell off all the other parts that make it a 3-way and keep the mnew K-33 woofers.  I don't have golden ears anymore nor do I have the space to do a K402 horn in my living room.  One day with the separate listening room will be another story.  (next year hopefully)  Hell, it could turn into Jubilee's then.  Who knows...

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3 hours ago, avguytx said:

Ok, so I'm deliberating on what would be required if I decide to go 2-way on the Belle.  If I decide to buy K510/K691 (?), is there a passive crossover network I can work with or someone who has built one that would share the diagram?  I don't really want to go active...I just want a passive network for running off of a single tube amp.  What's the normal price out there for  these parts?  PM me if it's not allowed in the forum.

 

Is the K510/K691 combo referred to, or ordered as, the KPT-904-HF?

 

Another option is the Fatial Pro HF140 with the LTH142 horn.  Bob Crites has mentioned he could do a passive 2-way for  those as he uses something similar, or exact, in the Cornscala D.  

 

Again, I'm trying to keep this kind of reasonable.  If I go 2-way, I'd just sell off all the other parts that make it a 3-way and keep the mnew K-33 woofers.  I don't have golden ears anymore nor do I have the space to do a K402 horn in my living room.  One day with the separate listening room will be another story.  (next year hopefully)  Hell, it could turn into Jubilee's then.  Who knows...

Keep in mind that the ENTIRE original thought process for the Belle Klipsch speaker was to create something which performed as close as possible to the LaScala, but which had much more WAF appeal, and PWK was a firm believer in the "golden mean" for aesthetics purposes.  The "golden mean" drove the design of the Belle Klipsch speaker CABINET, and the more shallow depth of that cabinet required a shorter mid-horn....which was change # one from the LaScala. 

 

That same shallower depth ALSO drove the change in the depth of the folded horn portion of the speaker, and the change in that depth still had to meet the "golden mean" principle, in how the bass horn lens was limited to its WIDTH in order to meet the "golden mean", all of which basically amounted to change # two from the LaScala. 

 

Because the "golden mean" of the design could not accommodate having the tweeter ABOVE the Mid-horn in the HF section of the Belle Klipsch speaker cabinet, and still be able to have the mouth of the mid-horn lens as tall as the one on the LaScala, then the Mid-Horn lens on the Belle had to ADDITIONALLY have its lens mouth be vertically shorter...which amounts to change # three from the LaScala.

 

Because of all the changes in everything the LaScala started out with to what had to be done to meet the "golden mean" for the Belle Klipsch speaker, then the crossover network ALSO had to be changed up...in order to provide performance as close as possible to the LaScala....which is effectively change # FIVE from the LaScala design.

 

The entire "design parameter" process was driven by AESTHETICS...for higher WAF...and to match up with a pair K-horns with the Belle Klipsch speaker as their center channel. 

PWK loved music, but his love for Belle (his first wife) drove the process of creating a three-way fully-horn-loaded speaker that performed "as closely as possible" to that of the LaScala, but met the "golden mean" of furniture design as a center channel between two flanking K-horns.

 

If one creates a "new" Belle Klipsch speaker cabinet, and the "golden mean" is not a part of the "design parameter" process, then they may as well build a LaScala, instead....just saying... 

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Thanks for that reply and information about the Belle; I always enjoy reading the history behind the decisions that were made in doing these things in production.  Roy had mentioned to me about turning it into a 2-way via email correspondence awhile back and Coytee mentions it quite frequently as do others.  I do like the aesthetics of the Belle better than the La Scala especially for how my living room is laid out, and, I just love the Belle looks.  I have all the parts to build a 3-way but can do either even if it makes the top section a tad taller to hold whatever horn is in there for the 2-way.  Or, not do the top section and run it open.  But I'd prefer it to have the stock look.

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the Pro Fatial horn and driver Bob Crites uses in his two way Conrscala 'D" would be a good choice also to consider for two way use in a Belle/LaScala.

 

you can also check out a project by one of our members (in case you/others have not seen it) though the thread is at diy audio dot com.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/268959-zobsky-contemplates-variation-belle-klipsch.html

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Yeah, I've seen that one. Good article. It's one of the reasons I've contemplated the Fatial driver and horn. I'm guessing the Klipsch K510 and K691 would be more pricier but maybe I can find a dealer friend to help out there. Thanks for that link. 

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Sorry, I haven't had time to continue this project. I would ideally like to cross around 400 Hz but I think that may be asking too much of the faital. Part of me wants to build in a synergy Into the top cab

 

I think that I prefer augumenting with a sub compared to the ported mod. I've tried both the crites woofers and the kappa15c and the kappa15c are a bit better in the mids vs the  crites which do bass a little bit better. Neither of these woofers are used to their full.potential in a short horn

 

I'll post back whenever I get time to work on this project .

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So what is "retail" price for the K510/K691? Or is it ordered as a cinema product?

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2 hours ago, avguytx said:

Or is it ordered as a cinema product?

 

I think you'll have to go through a cinema dealer.  Though I don't know the price, I think it's about $750? (but that's a guess)

 

I do know it's not $100 so though the above number might not be right, it's to get you in the ballpark.

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22 hours ago, Coytee said:

 

I think you'll have to go through a cinema dealer.  Though I don't know the price, I think it's about $750? (but that's a guess)

 

I do know it's not $100 so though the above number might not be right, it's to get you in the ballpark.

Is that $750 per pair as in (2) K691 and (2) K510 or just a single of each then x2?

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I believe the K510 (horn) is only available/sold with a driver as a set. I think that there is an option with a mid driver and an option with a wide band driver. The $750 sounds in the ballpark for a single set (horn/driver). K69 is a serous large format pro driver. If I am wrong I apologize in advance and would ask for the correct info to be posted here so others are not miss informed in the future. As mentioned Faital Pro and 18-Sound have comparable horns/drivers. The realization that "mumps" help (in Klipsch horns) would seem to be a step towards designing an elliptical horn. Both Faital Pro and 18Sound would be worth looking into as viable options for those looking to experiment.

 

http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/

http://www.eighteensound.com/Products

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The price would be for a single horn/driver, whatever the price is.  (I think it's ballpark $750/each...$1,500/pair)

 

 

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Hmm... May have to just stick with 3 way since I have all of those parts ready to go. 

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The plan at the moment is to go 3-way as I have all the parts for that. Thanks to Ken @longdrive03 for snagging 3 sheets of Baltic Birch today for me. It was a pleasure to see you again...has only taken 34 years in between. Ha. And was great getting to shoot the bull, too, and talk shop. 

 

So now I can say, "I've got wood..." :D I need to find a 4x8 sheet of 2" foam to make it easier to break down the sheets some before getting them on table saw. No biggie. Hoping I could at least make a few cuts tomorrow but if not, next weekend for sure. 

20170916_193948.jpg

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I too have been going down the DIY Belle like road for the last year or so.  I started with Belle bass bins and an EV horn as an active two way.  I recently sent funds to JWC for a good used set of Eliptrac mid and tweeter horns. I will be running a three way active as I all ready have the amps and electronic crossover.  But my plans are to try a passive crossover, sometime down the road, hopefully the first of next year.

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2 out of 3 sheets of Baltic Birch are cut out and starting on the last sheet now.  I'll take a picture and post later of the cut pieces after I clean up the sawdust and stack them a little.  ha

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And there you have it....all 36 pieces cut out for a pair of Belles.  Still have the angles on the ramps to do plus dog house angles,  woofer holes to cut out, etc, etc. But I got a lot done in 5 hours including breaks. Ha. Damn hot outside here. 

20170923_183510.jpg

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