What can you tell me about Fortes

[dtel]

2 hours ago, BigStewMan said:

yeah; but, does he like Ketchup?

Never asked and and I didn't pay attention, I knew I forgot something. He's a normal guy you could ask anything or tell anything, but were talking about ketchup, I need to know him a little better.

[ScooterMcTavish]

So question on placement - I've seen a few different opinions between "straight ahead", "toe in slightly", "aim directly at listener", and "45* toed in placed in corners and cross in front of listener".

 

Yesterday, I tried aiming them over my shoulders (a bit harsh), straight ahead (a bit meh) and tied in slightly (a nice wide soundfield).

 

What are other's experiences with the Fortes?

 

Of note, these are in a specific listening environment, and don't need to be set up so that "everyone" gets good sound.  Only me in my recliner.

[bkevind]

32 minutes ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

So question on placement - I've seen a few different opinions between "straight ahead", "toe in slightly", "aim directly at listener", and "45* toed in placed in corners and cross in front of listener".

 

Yesterday, I tried aiming them over my shoulders (a bit harsh), straight ahead (a bit meh) and tied in slightly (a nice wide soundfield).

 

What are other's experiences with the Fortes?

 

Of note, these are in a specific listening environment, and don't need to be set up so that "everyone" gets good sound.  Only me in my recliner.

 

Toed in slightly sounds best to me, in my space with my modded Forte II.  (Crites xo and ti tweets)

[dtel]

I know the designer of the F2 and F3 likes them toed in, crossing a couple of feet in front of the listener. This seems to be with any model, when he comes here or to a friends house (Kevin's) he likes to adjust the speakers how he says they sound best, and we get that look. It's the, you know how they sound best look what's the problem. At that point I have nothing, what can I say he surely knows more than I do and knows what to listen for, so of course I do it. Not that I really have a choice, he just does it, he can be a persistent Bonehead at times.

[bkevind]

9 hours ago, dtel said:

I know the designer of the F2 and F3 likes them toed in, crossing a couple of feet in front of the listener. This seems to be with any model, when he comes here or to a friends house (Kevin's) he likes to adjust the speakers how he says they sound best, and we get that look. It's the, you know how they sound best look what's the problem. At that point I have nothing, what can I say he surely knows more than I do and knows what to listen for, so of course I do it. Not that I really have a choice, he just does it, he can be a persistent Bonehead at times.

 

hahaha.  Can't argue with that!

 

Room and space has a lot to do with position.  MLP for me is 7-8ft from the F2 which are maybe 5-6ft apart (small room, too small for the Forte!).  So then, in this case, to me, slight toe in works better than aggressive toe in.  

[dtel]

2 hours ago, bkevind said:

hahaha.  Can't argue with that!

It wouldn't do me any good anyway, he would explain to me why, I learned to try not ask to many dumb questions, but I still do at times. I'll tell him hay I have a question, he says "what a surprise", I have alot of questions. But really he's very patent and explains things so I can understand them.

2 hours ago, bkevind said:

Room and space has a lot to do with position.

It really does, and I will probably hear it in a few weeks when I see him again.

 

We only use the Ht speakers for movies and TV, not music.

 

We have kind of a difference of opinion about my L&R HT speakers forte lll, he wanted them on the left and right of the sub which is about 9' apart with the Forte ll as a center.We left it like that while he was here, then I moved them to see how it sounded.

 

I wanted them on top of the 2 CH speakers which is in the corners of the room which is 24' wide, a big difference in placement. To me it still sounds fine with a good center channel, it just makes the sound much wider across the front.  He has never heard it like this yet, I told him when I seen him a couple of weeks ago what I did and he looked at me funny. All I could say was your going to have to hear it before you decide, I will probably lose ? I extended the speaker wire so they can be moved easily. 

 

Part of the reason I like it like this it gives me more space up front PLUS it's up and out the way from a 4 year old grandson and our daughter who is here sometimes when were not, these are new and I don't want anything to happen to them "by accident".

 

I thought about all of this when you said Room and space. This is also our living room so things can't always be perfect for everything, you have to make the best of the space, and how it's best used.

It's the Forte family for HT,  Forte lll's L&R,  Forte ll for center and rear center,  original Forte's for back L&R. I kept it like this on purpose, we gave our daughter a pair of forte ll's, I could have gave her the originals, she didn't care.

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

Well I toed them in tonight so that they crossed a few feet in front of me.

 

I’ll be darned, they sounded great. It got rid of the “beaminess” of the horns, and dialed down any harshness that was present.  The bass was somewhat less but also smoothers, with a little better tone and texture.

 

The only negative was the soundstage was narrower than vs slightly toed in, likely due to reduced sidewalk reflections.

 

On a side note, I took out the passive and crossover, and discovered the only mod is titanium domes on the tweeter.  Crossovers are still 100% original, while mids look to still be phenolic.

 

I’m actually quite impressed with these Fortes - they keep growing on me, and I found my B&W to sound a little dull next to them.

[moray james]

you can also try listen the same degree off axis of the horns by using  more toe out so that you are listening at the same angle off axis but on the opposite edge or side of the horn.

This may open things up for you. Remember that the off axis of horn's output is where they have their worst frequency response and on axis is where the response generally best. I would suggest that the beaming and or edge related to that position is not necessarily the horn but rather more likely your system. Having had Forte and Forte ll along with Heresy ll and Heresy lll, CF3 and KLF20 the only ones I would describe as a little hot on axis are the Heresy ll (more so) and Heresy lll (less so) but that can be tamed with some damping and open cell foam. Running in a well balanced system these speakers do not hot have to be hot on axis. Setting up with an equilateral triangle makes for the very best use of your horns directionality and yields the smoothest frequency response with the least possible room interaction. While your present set up may be working more to your liking it is not optimum. The more different speaker positions you try out and listen too be they good or bad the more you will learn about your room and what will work there. Sometimes some very odd placements can yield very good results but a good reference is a logical place to start. I always start with an equilateral triangle so if you are sitting 10' back from the speaker they will be 10' apart CTC and each speaker will be 10' away from your head directly on axis then you can play with a tiny amount of toe in or out.

[ScooterMcTavish]

I can try the speakers more toed in again, but the beaminess to me is more a texture of the sound vs. any response curve fault with it.  I would also question blaming this on the upstream electronics, as this setup sounds sublime with both a set of Monitor Audio Silver 6 and B&W 683.  Setup is a Jolida tube amp in bypass mode using KT-88 output tubes, and a Proton preamp.  This system generates rich and smooth sound.

 

As a listener, I am extremely mid-sensitive, and this is why I am now on my fourth set of Klipsch.  The past models I have had delivered good full-spectrum sound, but the delivery "style" of the horn tweeters just added an unnatural texture to the sound that other speaker designs I have owned did not.  I wouldn't call the delivery "hot", "harsh", or even "grainy" - it's just "different", or for lack of a better word "horny", like someone yelling through cupped hands.  When toed in to cross in front of me, this effect was the lowest I've heard it.  When I went back to slight toe in (so I am still off axis), this character returned.  When I initially set them up same as my B&W (aimed at my shoulders in a 6' x 6' x 6' equilateral triangle) this character was even more present.

 

And who am I to argue with @dtel and the designer of the F2 and F3?  I'm sure they've both forgotten more about audio that I'll ever know.

 

The toe out idea is interesting though.  When I've done this with speakers before, it almost creates "false space" like a DSP mode, or a "spatializer" on an old EQ.  Might be interesting to try though.

 

  

[dtel]

7 hours ago, ScooterMcTavish said:

And who am I to argue with @dtel and the designer of the F2 and F3?  I'm sure they've both forgotten more about audio that I'll ever know.

Hey I'm here just like you, I depend on much more experienced people like Roy for info. And every room is different, no one thing works everywhere but ideas are worth trying, especially when they don't require messing with the speaker design and are free, my favorite kind. Before I would ever change a speaker I would look to the room, I do not believe in just changing out drivers or changing how the speaker works, it dosn't take much to change a speakers voicing or design, and if you only go by your ears you could be messing up something else you don't notice right away.

 

These things are not just parts thrown into a cabinet, a crazy amount of testing goes into them. I have witnessed just small parts of testing of drivers separately and combined as a design, (most things I don't understand) each decision affects others. When the Forte lll was being designed I got to see some of the new mid horns being considered, the horn I picked didn't make the cut. He explained why the other 3 were ruled out, honestly I only got a little of it, the rest was over my head.

 

But it very interesting to see what they go through for a design, it's quite shocking really, he obsesses over ideas and would not put his name on it if he is unsatisfied. We got to hear the finished product way before production started, it was a little rough looking and did not have any of the pretty parts yet but it sounded very good, before production started he made one last change, I couldn't hear the difference but he could.

 

Roy has over 30 years of doing this, testing, actually listening and scientific with any kind of test equipment he could want and was mentored by PWK. I trust him.

Who know more, someone at home with a free downloaded program and a cheap mic connected to a laptop, or just there ears ?  Don't think so, sorry if offends anyone, then they have the nerve to call it an "upgrade", that's funny.

 

You can hear what changes can be had by just slightly turning a speaker, you could imagine if you messed with the speakers design, you never know what your really doing ?

[ScooterMcTavish]

Damndest thing.

 

I was listening to the Fortes as I work from home today, and thought I'd hook up my B&W 683 (a very nice speaker) for a change of pace.

 

Lasted about a hour.  Tube amp was turned off and cooled over lunch, and the Forte were hooked back up.

 

Going from a speaker  I described as "harsh" and "tinnitus inducing" at the demo, to a preferred speaker in my music room.  Who woulda thunk it.  WIth the dynamics of the Fortes, they make the sedate B&W sound, well, kinda' dull.

 

Should note though, that the Fortes do not suffer poor recordings in a polite way.  A few tracks have certainly played (200 CD jukebox on random) where I'd certainly prefer the B&W.  That being said, one can certainly her the difference between 12" passive radiated bass and 2 x 6.5" ported bass.  It has weight.