32blownhemi Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 What do I have to do to hook-up the K-402 horns to my commercial La Scala's? I have the commercial La Scala's so the woofer bin is separate from the tweeter/mid top. I'm a new-be so I have no idea. I would also like to brace the bins. I did a search on bracing & read about either putting braces in the front or putting thicker plywood on the outside. Think i'd like to go with adding 3/4" plywood on the sides, back & top. Do I glue the thicker plywood on, screw it or both? And how do I get to the insides of the bin? Do I need to to hook up the 402's? Doesn't look like there's a way to get to the insides of the woofer bin without taking it apart... Thank You! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 couple thoughts... If you are going to biamp, Roy has added a PEQ into the program which either helps at minimum or eliminates at best the sidewalls from vibrating. I have a LaScala I was going to use as center. I was going to wrap it in 3/4" plywood and at same time, make a new motorboard so the K510 would fit inside. If your speakers are 2-piece, you can do this to them and just store the top somewhere. If you look at the attached PDF, you will see under the "Lo" column, there is a PEQ at 148 Hz and the next line down (Q/Slope)is "8" and the next line down (Filter level (db)) is -7 I believe that is the filter that helps tame the sidewalls. BTW, you know horns are honky? LaScalas are known to be thin on bass....you should get a nice subwoofer... DX-38 settings for LaScala (1 or 2) LF with K402 & K69.pdf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 I guess to be a bit more exact now that I re-read your post... You take your preamp's outputs and take it into an electronic crossover. Inside there, it will split the signal into four different "legs". Two of them will be for low frequencies and the other two for high. You will take one of the lows and one of the high frequency legs coming OUT of the active and make those your input to your amps. Then run the respective channel to either the woofer or tweeter. Repeat on second speaker and you're done. Something I do when I hook mine up.... I'm always (and I mean always) paranoid that I"m going to hook my woofer line to the tweeter and send a heavy signal to the tweeter and blow it. Therefore, I ONLY hook the woofer up first and make sure it's working right before attaching the tweeter section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 On 4/22/2017 at 6:08 PM, 32blownhemi said: I'm a new-be so I have no idea. If you have split La Scalas then you can use only the La Scala bass bins. This is really a big advantage in that the centerline of the K-402-HF assembly is closer to the centerline of the bass bin, which strongly affects midbass performance. On 4/22/2017 at 6:08 PM, 32blownhemi said: I would also like to brace the bins. I did a search on bracing & read about either putting braces in the front or putting thicker plywood on the outside. Think I'd like to go with adding 3/4" plywood on the sides, back & top. Do I glue the thicker plywood on, screw it or both? And how do I get to the insides of the bin? You can screw through the side walls from the inside or the outside of the bass bin side walls. I'd recommend gluing and screwing, but I haven't done this with La Scalas (perhaps someone that has will comment). The idea is to make the side walls as non-resonant and non-deflecting as possible. I know of no way to disassemble the bass bin easily. On 4/22/2017 at 6:08 PM, 32blownhemi said: And how do I get to the insides of the bin? There is an access port on the bottom of the bass bin to the woofer. On 4/22/2017 at 6:08 PM, 32blownhemi said: Do I need to hook up the 402's? Electrically- yes. The industrial La Scala crossover that's presently used is replaced. You can use an active crossover or passive. With an active crossover, you'll bi-amp the JubScalas. With a passive, you can bi-amp or mono-amp. Bi-amping using an active digital crossover allows you to time-align the K-402 to the bass bin as well as equalizing the K-402 and the bass bin frequency response flat. The performance of the JubScala is a large increase in fidelity. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32blownhemi Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 Thank You Richard & Chris! Do I just do the sides & back in 3/4 plywood or the top too? And I'm guessing that the existing crossover is in the top inclosure (with Tweeter & mid). So bi-amping is better... Richard, So I need a sub? Do you know where I can get one? LOL... Chris, I'll be using a Danley DTS-10 sub... Thank You, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 regarding the sides.... I think it depends on your concerns for aesthetics. I think you have the 2-piece boxes? If you wanted it to be "pretty" you could wrap the top & sides and then veneer it with something pretty. If you don't have that concern, I think the sides are where the needs is as the top/bottom are braced with the internal doghouse. Dave at Fastlane Audio had some Ez braces, looks like they're discontinued but you can see how clever the idea is http://www.fastlaneaudio.com/lascala-bracing..html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 17 hours ago, 32blownhemi said: What do I have to do to hook-up the K-402 horns to my commercial La Scala's? I have the commercial La Scala's so the woofer bin is separate from the tweeter/mid top. I'm a new-be so I have no idea. I would also like to brace the bins. I did a search on bracing & read about either putting braces in the front or putting thicker plywood on the outside. Think i'd like to go with adding 3/4" plywood on the sides, back & top. Do I glue the thicker plywood on, screw it or both? And how do I get to the insides of the bin? Do I need to to hook up the 402's? Doesn't look like there's a way to get to the insides of the woofer bin without taking it apart... Thank You! Bill I have done the cabinet overlay to several La Scalas the most recent pair being my own after removing the top section which is basically what you are working with. I have used contact adhesive, Tite Bond three and Gorilla Construction adhesive(which has replaced PL for me). Regardless of the adhesive I always try to achieve 100% coverage(not as important with the construction adhesive). whether you use a brush, roller, trowel, putty knife, etc. I have used my air nailer and brads or screws, but I always use some type of fastener. In the end they are just basically clamps for whatever adhesive you use. Gives me peace of mind as well. There are other ways to hold the panels in place while the adhesive cures but you cannot keep working using these methods(vacuum bag, clamps, etc.). After the adhesive cures I use my router and flush trim bit to remove the overlap on the newly added panels. I have got to say I am really starting to like the Gorilla Construction Adhesive. It is gap filling, strong as all get out, easier to compress than PL and any squeeze-out at the joints is easily removed with a putty knife after it cures for several hours. I brace the cabinet wedge style x 2 inside the dog house at midpoint as Richard mentioned above. I have made my own and bought braces from both Dave and Greg Roberts. They both sell grille frames as well. I have had rolls of both black and brown Klipsch(Duracrest)fabric for many years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Oh and by the way the pictures are of my own La Scalas. I did not wrap mine for resonance control. I wrapped them because they were so beat up it was easier than patching to achieve a good substrate for veneer. I used 1/4" MDF on this pair on exterior cabinet surfaces. I used 1/2" MDF on all the other ones. Flush trim opening to dog house..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Does the LF section of the La Scala have enough output to keep up/balance with a 402? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 7 hours ago, 32blownhemi said: Thank You Richard & Chris! Do I just do the sides & back in 3/4 plywood or the top too? And I'm guessing that the existing crossover is in the top inclosure (with Tweeter & mid). So bi-amping is better... Richard, So I need a sub? Do you know where I can get one? LOL... Chris, I'll be using a Danley DTS-10 sub... Thank You, Bill There is no need to brace the tops, bottom or rear. The top and bottom are braced by the doghouse yielding short unbraced lengths. The rear has splitters so its unbraced lengths are also short. I would prefer inside braces, but that takes more skill to fabricate. Note that the braces in this pic are off center to ensure they don't cause a resonance at 2x the natural frequency of the sidewall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 If you have already added at least 1/4" more thickness to the sides of the LaScala bass bin, then you have already braced them where they needed bracing. That is why Klipsch went to 1" thick MDF for those panels to begin with. But for aesthetics purposes they had to change all the panels to 1" thickness. There are OTHER ways of bracing the bass bin side panels than to add thickness to the ENTIRE side panels. Keep in mind that the resonance issues have nothing to do with the rear area of the side panels...since the joinery there solves that...it has to do with the center of the bass bin side panel from front to rear, and the issue is more severe as you approach the MOUTH of the bass bin....which can be braced from the inside of the panel OR from the OUTSIDE of the panel. All you are really trying to do is STIFFEN the mouth of the bass bin at its sides...to solve the issue. This can be done in a variety of ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Schu said: Does the LF section of the La Scala have enough output to keep up/balance with a 402? If I read this right, it looks like Roy bumps the bass bin by 4 db's DX-38 settings for LaScala (1 or 2) LF with K402 & K69.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32blownhemi Posted April 25, 2017 Author Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) Thank You Richard, jorjen, Schu, John & HDBRbuilder! Yes Richard, 2 piece boxes. And I took the bottom off & I've got K-43E woofers which I read are the better ones. I'm not really that much into looks although I don't want my friends to say; "Gee that ugly speaker sure sounds good"... LOl... I think I'll just put 3/4" plywood on the 2 sides. I'm more comfortable doing that then trying to fit inside pieces in... I read the label on the Gorilla Construction Adhesive today & it said it bonds in 30 seconds? Is that enough time to get the plywood covered in glue put on? And should I use particle board or plywood? Should I sand the paint off of the existing sides? Easier if I don't, lol... Thanks again! Bill Edited April 25, 2017 by 32blownhemi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I personally was going to use plywood verses particle board. I presume you are ok if you don't send it however, I suspect a light sanding would give a better bonding surface? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Looks like to me 1/2 inch ply would be enough and easier to make pretty. I added a 1/2 inch panel to inside of the back panel of my Heresy 1s and it seems to stiffen it up good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 2 hours ago, ricktate said: Looks like to me 1/2 inch ply would be enough and easier to make pretty. I added a 1/2 inch panel to inside of the back panel of my Heresy 1s and it seems to stiffen it up good enough. Rick nailed it. We often forget "good enough". No material is rigid or non-resonant. It doesn't have to be, either. Your floor only has to be stiff enough that you are not uncomfortable walking on it and your La Scalas only have to be inaudibly resonant inside the frequency range where they operate. If it rang like a dinner bell at 10k it would be irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 8 hours ago, 32blownhemi said: Thank You Richard, jorjen, Schu, John & HDBRbuilder! Yes Richard, 2 piece boxes. And I took the bottom off & I've got K-43E woofers which I read are the better ones. I'm not really that much into looks although I don't want my friends to say; "Gee that ugly speaker sure sounds good"... LOl... I think I'll just put 3/4" plywood on the 2 sides. I'm more comfortable doing that then trying to fit inside pieces in... I read the label on the Gorilla Construction Adhesive today & it said it bonds in 30 seconds? Is that enough time to get the plywood covered in glue put on? And should I use particle board or plywood? Should I sand the paint off of the existing sides? Easier if I don't, lol... Thanks again! Bill Read it again. It says within 10 minutes of application press together for 20-60 seconds to bond without clamping. Cures in 24 hours. With the panel sizes you are working with I would still use some type of fasteners for the best uniform bond. Edges and middle section. You don't need too many and I just try to space them somewhat evenly. If I decide to go to the trouble of using screws instead of my brad nailer I like to pre-drill and counter sink holes in the outer panel. When adding 3/4" material I use 1 1/4" flat head deck screws so they do not pop through the existing inside walls of the bin but give you 1/2" or slightly more bite. Also, as I mentioned before. The best thing about using fasteners besides the bond is you can proceed to work on your project. If you clamp, vacuum bag, etc., etc., you are pretty much prohibited from doing so for a time. Several ways to do this. I do it quite a bit so I am just trying to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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