jimjimbo Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 34 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said: 102 db sensitivity and 200 watts is unacceptable? I don't think Derrick said it was unacceptable. He asked why (would you need that much wattage, or, that high sensitivity speaker) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 9, 2017 Author Share Posted May 9, 2017 58 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said: 102 db sensitivity and 200 watts is unacceptable? What about 108 db and a 50 watt amp, is that ok? Never said it was unacceptable. You just won't ever use all that power unless are blasting the place out. 108 sensitivity = 108 db at 1 meter for 1 watt 2 watts = 111 db 4 watts= 114 db 8 watts = 117 db 16 watts = 120 db 32 watts =123 db We all know distortion does not dramatically go up until the limits are being pushed. It is not a linear relationship. We also know that we can add another 3 db for the second speaker in a 2 channel system. THX calls for speakers to get to 105 db. max. Most music higher than 115 db is very uncomfortabel to listen to for any length of time. People can do what they like. I am talking about general setup and not any one particular speaker. The laws of physic are not changed by opinion easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Hey guys, I just started a new thread which ties into this discussion about power requirements. If enough participate perhaps we can get a really good idea of what is needed for various Klipsch speakers: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/170414-who-wants-to-measure-how-much-power-voltage-is-really-needed/ Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woofers and Tweeters Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 On 5/7/2017 at 3:13 PM, russ69 said: My rule is that a good loudspeaker will always sound better than a poor loudspeaker regardless of room size. A profound statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 53 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: I don't think Derrick said it was unacceptable. He asked why (would you need that much wattage, or, that high sensitivity speaker) The amplifier question is somewhat of a moot point in my opinion. You can't hardly find a respectable multi-channel amp that's less than 100 watts per channel and that kind of power really doesn't change the underlying argument. Most everything geared towards home theater is in the triple digits, even cheap receivers, except for the compact Marantz slim line type stuff, Parasound's compact half width offerings, commercial / architectural amps with tons of channels, or boutique 2-channel amps. You have to somewhat go out of your way to find weak high quality amps especially multichannel ones. Otherwise you can buy a $300 receiver now that has enough power to really do some damage with high efficiency speakers. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it though. So if you throw that out, we're basically on a Klipsch page asking why anybody would want very high efficiency speakers, seemingly asking why anybody with a room smaller than Derricks giant basement would want anything bigger than RF-7ii's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 46 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said: Never said it was unacceptable. You just won't ever use all that power unless are blasting the place out. 108 sensitivity = 108 db at 1 meter for 1 watt 2 watts = 111 db 4 watts= 114 db 8 watts = 117 db 16 watts = 120 db 32 watts =123 db We all know distortion does not dramatically go up until the limits are being pushed. It is not a linear relationship. We also know that we can add another 3 db for the second speaker in a 2 channel system. THX calls for speakers to get to 105 db. max. Most music higher than 115 db is very uncomfortabel to listen to for any length of time. People can do what they like. I am talking about general setup and not any one particular speaker. My underlying disagreement is that most everything you have said so far seems to be primarily revolving around nothing but sheer volume. How much SPL can this speaker produce in this room with this amplifier. There's just more to it than that. 48 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said: The laws of physic are not changed by opinion easily. I'm sure many people can agree with you there. "My theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change." -- Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSVRMAN Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 Reverting back to the original post, I believe it really depends on the individual. Some people ask what's best, we recommend and they buy that never to appear again. They then tell their friends they are the best and so on. Klipsch made a sale so all is good. They don't really care to go into the details and just want an answer. I tend to avoid these people here/klipsch owners on Facebook and generally in life. Then there are those that are looking into the well and wondering how far down it goes. Maybe not too experienced and don't know where or what to start. I generally will ask price, new/old, size of room, audio/movies, what they currently own and if they will use it with the new purchase and if they have a goal in mind. This sets the tone for reference/heritage/pro line pretty well. I've seen others ask nearly the same questions. From there it's generally not too hard to provide decent recommendations. Then there's the third type who have serious OCD problems before buying.... they will ask too many questions and want to learn and know everything. They can be annoying at times, but mean well. Aka me. Seriously I speed read and watched blender reviews for a almost a month before I bought my blender... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSVRMAN Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 On 5/9/2017 at 0:33 PM, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said: Trent put Jubilees in a fairly small room and says his sweet spot is the size of his couch. Something to think about. From looking at other owners pictures, it looks like a lot of people have rooms similar in size. Sweet spot is the whole room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted May 12, 2017 Moderators Share Posted May 12, 2017 29 minutes ago, RSVRMAN said: They can be annoying at times, but mean well. Aka me. Seriously I speed read and watched blender reviews for a almost a month before I bought my blender... I am glad it's not just me, and I even annoy myself checking things out before deciding, finally I decide I can't possibly get a better answer than I already have and make a decision. By then I'm about as sure as I could possibly be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSVRMAN Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 40 minutes ago, dtel said: I am glad it's not just me, and I even annoy myself checking things out before deciding, finally I decide I can't possibly get a better answer than I already have and make a decision. By then I'm about as sure as I could possibly be. Must be the hunter gene. Hunting for the best price or best prize. It's kind of funny as even my friends wives will sometimes ask them before a big purchase if they called me before hand. The ocd pays off though. Especially with my tool purchases. Buying something researched almost always lasts, while the things I buy just to get fall apart. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted May 12, 2017 Moderators Share Posted May 12, 2017 Exactly, I am crazy with it and I just went through it. I was looking for a certain wireless thermometer for smoking meat, and a replacement LED bulb for a old Mag-light I have. I probably spent 3 day readings and checking prices, it was only 3 days because I did this for the thermometer about 6-8 months ago and waited. Now it may all sound crazy, but when I first checked out this thermometer months ago it was 70-80$, most places now it's 60-70$, I found some new for 35.99 , it should be here in a few days, right before the led bulb get's here. I can't help it I do the same with tools, they are way to expensive to buy a second time, I have had VERY good luck researching reviews and prices. When I am done I know exactly what model I want, no question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 Hello all............I can only contribute a 'little fact' that I ran into as an example of my own doing, which quickly became an undoing .. Many know me to have a few dedicated media rooms... On of them is the 'Longfellow Theater', it was formerly a bedroom. We had a contractor come and rip out a built in closet (as most homes have) which then made the room a good rectangle with NO abstractions to sight lines or sound, but a SMALL one just the same at only 10.5 x 11.5' ... While 'Music Hall' was getting a new floor installed, I decided to move the KH's into this small space as an experiment.. (the Pinnacle AC-850ies were a good match for the room, but I wanted to see what would happen...). The Klipsch had to be taken apart to get them around a tight hallway corner into the room and then reassembled (a bit of a pain).. All setup and driven by the heart of the system, a full featured Onkyo 7.1 AVR... Mind you, the room is TOTALLY surrounded in curtains, there are no bare walls to be found, so reflections are minimal... My first reaction was that they sounded VERY 'confined' and even though tight to the corners, made a disappointingly weak bass !!! Hmmm. Well, I had heard enough, and as soon as the new floor was finished in Music Hall, back they went. Now, back in a space that is 23.5 x 17' they seem to breath nicely, and you all know what I run to power them (Dynaco MK 3's), the bass can be bigger then my pair of dual 12' powered subwoofers which still amazes me! (thought the KH's won't play as low - the impact can be incredibly huge in their respective low end ranges - most all know that already).. Music Hall has also been tuned with carefully placed ATS acoustic panels, it was a very live space originally and has now been tamed ... Well, ok, just thought I would through in my 2 cents on KH's in a small, acoustically dry space experience... Anyone care to add? ................Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 22 minutes ago, Tigerman said: NO abstractions to sight lines or sound, Gary- Nothing worse than abstractions to sight or sound, unless, of course, it is that damn auto "correct." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 12, 2017 Author Share Posted May 12, 2017 Gary gave a good example of what this thread is about. Now, dtel also sighted a case where the Jubs gave a large sweet spot that covered most of the listening area. You guys have be listening to music and movies to long for me to discount anyone's experience. It has been mention that the focus of this thread is all spl related. This is not the case. The thread as focused on speaker reflection(ceiling / floor), imaging, sound stage, room fit, power requirements and a few other things. This thread has did what I intended, generate discussion, and have us take a step back in speaker recommendation to consider the big picture and include the room. You can have the greatest speaker in the world but, if it does not work in your room, then the baby was throw out with the bath water. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted May 13, 2017 Moderators Share Posted May 13, 2017 7 hours ago, derrickdj1 said: It has been mention that the focus of this thread is all spl related. This is not the case. Your right, that's just crazy. Room reflections and whatever junk is in the room, or lack of junk is one of the biggest factors on how anything sounds, and this is not even counting good and bad recordings. SPL, almost any speaker can reach crazy levels, SPL has little to do with size or quality of speakers. We have big speakers, some say oh you must like it loud, truthfully we rarely listen loud. We average a volume where we can talk without raising our voice, not much for speakers that weigh almost 1000 pounds and 6' wide each. It's not about spl. Another confession, I have done nothing at all to our room to change the sound. But it's our living room and it already has a large rug, big sofa, three other cushioned chairs and plenty of curtains so if anything it might be a little dead ? But your 100% right about the room affecting the sound, a perfect example was a while back. It was someone who listened to LaScalas and liked them, brought them home and was saying how thin and flat they sounded and was asking for ways to fix the problem. After many post back and forth it came out they were put in a basement, 4 cement walls and cement floor with almost nothing else in the room. A perfect example, nothing could sound good in that room as is. It's why I don't usually get involved in threads that almost all of the advice is to change out many parts of the speaker itself or electronics, and never even consider what kind of room they are in. EDIT; I was curious so I went and checked, 65 db, it's been on like that since 10 this morning, just an average. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 I dont think a lot of spl was the discussion. What works in the room and what is overkill is definitely key as are goals. The most basic thing i see that is unhelpful is the reflexive suggestion to get rp280fs all the time. Or the bigger ones no matter what. Rf7s at 6ft may not image well. Its a valid point. Asking what someone wants to achieve is def key. At avsforum all day long they debate adding more speakers to fix issues that don't require more speakers! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 13, 2017 Author Share Posted May 13, 2017 1 hour ago, RoboKlipsch said: I dont think a lot of spl was the discussion. What works in the room and what is overkill is definitely key as are goals. The most basic thing i see that is unhelpful is the reflexive suggestion to get rp280fs all the time. Or the bigger ones no matter what. Rf7s at 6ft may not image well. Its a valid point. Asking what someone wants to achieve is def key. At avsforum all day long they debate adding more speakers to fix issues that don't require more speakers! Rob, you brought up the guys on AVS. The big interest in MBM is mainly because the low bass in some of the guys system cancels and drowns out the midbass. In other words, it is a problem that could have been avoided. Sometimes you end up fighting yourself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 2 hours ago, derrickdj1 said: Rob, you brought up the guys on AVS. The big interest in MBM is mainly because the low bass in some of the guys system cancels and drowns out the midbass. In other words, it is a problem that could have been avoided. Sometimes you end up fighting yourself. mid bass problems with floor bounce causes them to look to add more speakers instead of changing placement treatment and then eq. then w subs they try for a while and wonder if a 30cft box would be better. it is insane....yet awesome. i think goals are a key question we forget to ask sometimes. to dtel......no room without deliberate treatment is too dead. while it is ez to overabsorb the highs ive never seen a room that wouldnt benefit from a minimal early reflection treatment. people spend 1000s on upgrades completely missing the massive benefits of minimal treatment. any room untreated likely has the weakest link in the chain the room treatment. i have heavily treated and untreated. both sound good but music or dialog are vastly improved in clarity and imaging imo. while treating can be very scientific it can also be trial and measurement and a major improvement can be achieved for a few hundred $$ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK Thom Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Rather than better or worse quite often we are referring to our preferences. Certain speakers have characteristics we either favour or don't. Room size and intended usage are very important, in fact that is how I bought my Ohms. They have different models matched to cubic feet of room. Usage matters as well, if your goal is moderate to high listening or reference level movie watching. Myself I don't care for reference levels even at the theatre. Too loud for my tastes, perfect for many others though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 "it sounds better"...is a relative term...and so is: "it doesn't sound as good". Everybody is different and everybody's HEARING is a bit different. Everybody's upstream equipment is different. Everybody's listening environment is different. Everybody's memory is different. AND most everybody heard favorite songs the first time through crap gear in a car, or on MTV, etc. The thing that REALLY annoys me the MOST is when the person doing the "comparison" between speakers just doesn't understand the above statements or even take them into consideration. I have heard people COMPLAIN about Klipschorns which were set-up PERFECTLY in and outstanding environment for them...with really great upstream components! And after talking the person for awhile, I understood WHY they complained about them. For example...somebody just LOVES a particular SONG which they FIRST heard (and fell in love with!!) DECADES ago while listening to it on the crap rear deck speakers of their car through a 4-track tape deck while driving down the road with all the windows rolled down at 70 mph! And now that they have heard it through the K-horns, all they can say is that "It just does NOT sound like I remembered it when I first heard it and fell in love with it....I will not be satisfied until I can hear it that way again!" So, I just bite my tongue and try not to tell them that "If you REALLY want to hear it that way again, then you need to buy a restored 1975 Ford Pinto with a 4-track tape deck in it and drive down the road at 70mph with all the windows rolled down to hear it that way again!" "BUT if you want to hear it like YOU SHOULD HAVE HEARD IT through accurate sound reproducers, it will NEVER sound that way again!" The same goes for audio-clowns and their "reference" speakers used for comparison purposes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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