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Mallette

Promising test

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Well, a VERY unscientific test dictated by what I have on hand suggests Son of SoundCube is another advance toward recording acoustic performances with the sonic advantages of surround, but the simplicity of 2 channel.  Recorded my son's high school spring band concert a week ago.  As I had nothing remotely close to the 4 identical speakers that I specify for listening, I decided to use what was on hand.  Pair of RS LX-5s and Frazier MkVs.  Can't get more mismatched than that...but figured what the heck.  Couldn't get much volume from the LXs as all I had around was a Dayton T-Amp.  More potent than most of that breed, claiming 50wpc, but I've never found the wpc rating on these things to be very accurate. 

 

However, point is that the sound field was pretty immersive, and the applause was clearly where it belonged...in the rear.  OK, that's only news from the standpoint of my working towards a more practical way to achieve the already proven results of using the same approach of coincident miking that has proven to yield the very best conventional stereo.  The original SoundCube worked beautifully, but at a cubic meter it isn't really very location friendly.  SoundCube, Jr. works great as well, but the smaller size diminishes bass and it still isn't all that easy to place.  I've did a few tests with my beloved ribbon mikes, but the very rear lobe of the figure 8 pattern that is so nice for getting some space into stereo muddies the surround image to an unacceptable degree.  The present rig is an array that attaches readily to my Atlas boom and consists of 4 1" condenser mikes with a very mild cardioid pattern.  The cardioid concerned me as the more "normal" cardioid patterns reject different frequencies at different angles and it's easily audible to the discerning audio freak.  But these seem to have just enough to favor the direction their pointed it, but overlap sufficiently in coincident pattern to produce accuracy.  Film at eleven. 

 

Once I've done another recording or two and tested under more serious conditions, I'll put up some files in 4 channel wav files Audacity, and I am told, Media Monkey at least can play and route properly.  But that is final testing so it may take some time.  Want it better rather than sooner.

 

Dave

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Interesting morning.  Switched out the speakers and found, to some degree, why the LX-5s were so inefficient.  Surrounds deteriorated.  So, switched speakers for a different pair...in good repair...and was able to get a real sense of success.  Immersive, easy, and what I've always been looking for in surround.  For those of you who are still thinking the 5.1 crap (mostly) let's say "double stereo."  Surround where if you turn around you are looking at the audience instead of the back wall of your listening room.  Not saying it's ready for prime time.  Still need to record more, and ensure that the bound files load without hassle to as many free software players as possible.  Needs to be as "fiddle free" as playing ripped CDs or downloads. 

 

Started to toss the LX's.  Had them 20 years...but then got to remembering how sweet they are and that the really important part, the Linauem high end, was still good on both.  Quick research at Parts Express turned up a pair of 5" woofers with 5 star ratings at about 50 bucks.  Seems well worth it to me.  While I got these on sale, list was 300 bucks around 1995 or so when I got them.  And, they made Stereophile's list of good stuff.  Pretty rare for something that cheap...and from Rat Shack. 

 

Looking forward to getting them back in the inventory.

 

Dave

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5 hours ago, Mallette said:

Interesting morning.  Switched out the speakers and found, to some degree, why the LX-5s were so inefficient.  Surrounds deteriorated.  So, switched speakers for a different pair...in good repair...and was able to get a real sense of success.  Immersive, easy, and what I've always been looking for in surround.  For those of you who are still thinking the 5.1 crap (mostly) let's say "double stereo."  Surround where if you turn around you are looking at the audience instead of the back wall of your listening room.  Not saying it's ready for prime time.  Still need to record more, and ensure that the bound files load without hassle to as many free software players as possible.  Needs to be as "fiddle free" as playing ripped CDs or downloads. 

 

Started to toss the LX's.  Had them 20 years...but then got to remembering how sweet they are and that the really important part, the Linauem high end, was still good on both.  Quick research at Parts Express turned up a pair of 5" woofers with 5 star ratings at about 50 bucks.  Seems well worth it to me.  While I got these on sale, list was 300 bucks around 1995 or so when I got them.  And, they made Stereophile's list of good stuff.  Pretty rare for something that cheap...and from Rat Shack. 

 

Looking forward to getting them back in the inventory.

 

Dave

Love my LX's too and the Linauem is a great high end driver. They do make good surround speakers as the Linauem is dipole. Used to use them that way years ago. I had two pair and swapped out the woofers in one set due to the surround rot. I gave one pair to a niece who is in Chicago with them now and these must have been the ones I swapped out as the ones I have here still have the original woofers. If I remember correctly, those 5 inch drivers are too small. Although they weren't an exact fit, I used the 5.25 inch daytons (dc130AS). It is a tight fit but you can make it work and most of all, sounded very good (better than the original maybe). Either way, check out the specs and I think you will find the 5's too small to work. The screw holes are slotted on the 5.25 so you can cheat in a little. I use my nearfield with my computer and really do enjoy them still.

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8 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

Although they weren't an exact fit, I used the 5.25 inch daytons (dc130AS). It is a tight fit but you can make it work

Thanks for the tip.  A bit concerned.  Specs said 5", so I was going with the 5" polypropylene-cone bass/midrange from PE.  Not sure what you mean by "if you can make it work."  From the way the cabinets are constructed, it's either going in or not. 

 

8 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

I use my nearfield with my computer and really do enjoy them still.

Precisely where I used mine, and I've said here that listening to stuff in nearfield on them didn't make me want to run to the Klipschorns. 

Dave

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My statement of "if you can make it work" was just me back peddling. This is not a "drop in" replacement. You need to use a little finesse to get that baby to seat "adequately". The original driver is an odd size leaning more toward 5.25 than 5.0. Yank the old one out and take some measurements. Take the grill off, pop out the rubber inserts that held the grill and you only have 4 screws holding the face on. I just wish I had the other pair to take apart and be sure because it was several years ago. I checked my PE history and never bought 5". I have used the 5.25 several times so hard to be certain. I just wanted to give you a heads up before you went with the 5".

We are on the same page with the nearfield sound quality, so they are worth the effort.

Good luck.

 

LX.thumb.jpg.e136d27e15ee0a8583b5ca45eac4284d.jpg

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On 5/3/2017 at 3:16 PM, Mallette said:

Well, a VERY unscientific test dictated by what I have on hand suggests Son of SoundCube is another advance toward recording acoustic performances with the sonic advantages of surround, but the simplicity of 2 channel.  Recorded my son's high school spring band concert a week ago.  As I had nothing remotely close to the 4 identical speakers that I specify for listening, I decided to use what was on hand.  Pair of RS LX-5s and Frazier MkVs.  Can't get more mismatched than that...but figured what the heck.  Couldn't get much volume from the LXs as all I had around was a Dayton T-Amp.  More potent than most of that breed, claiming 50wpc, but I've never found the wpc rating on these things to be very accurate. 

 

However, point is that the sound field was pretty immersive, and the applause was clearly where it belonged...in the rear.  OK, that's only news from the standpoint of my working towards a more practical way to achieve the already proven results of using the same approach of coincident miking that has proven to yield the very best conventional stereo.  The original SoundCube worked beautifully, but at a cubic meter it isn't really very location friendly.  SoundCube, Jr. works great as well, but the smaller size diminishes bass and it still isn't all that easy to place.  I've did a few tests with my beloved ribbon mikes, but the very rear lobe of the figure 8 pattern that is so nice for getting some space into stereo muddies the surround image to an unacceptable degree.  The present rig is an array that attaches readily to my Atlas boom and consists of 4 1" condenser mikes with a very mild cardioid pattern.  The cardioid concerned me as the more "normal" cardioid patterns reject different frequencies at different angles and it's easily audible to the discerning audio freak.  But these seem to have just enough to favor the direction their pointed it, but overlap sufficiently in coincident pattern to produce accuracy.  Film at eleven. 

 

Once I've done another recording or two and tested under more serious conditions, I'll put up some files in 4 channel wav files Audacity, and I am told, Media Monkey at least can play and route properly.  But that is final testing so it may take some time.  Want it better rather than sooner.

 

Dave

you used these ? found my receipt still in the box from 98.

IMG_20170504_214853.jpg

IMG_20170504_214949.jpg

IMG_20170504_215020.jpg

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I love these little buggers. Metal cabinet and very high end sound.

BTW there is an ebay seller that sells rubber surrounds that rea perfect fit for these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-piece-5-5-inch-Repair-woofer-Bass-Speaker-Rubber-Surrounds-120B-/280914687138?hash=item4167d1f4a2:g:mT0AAMXQBg5RtfCx

 

They're called 120B and others also sell those, but the rubber is a wee bit thicker. I glue them and put em in the plastic baffle just snug enough and use a washer on the screwd between the speaker and the baffle to not pinch down too hard on the rubber. Though that probably will not hurt.

Rubber surround makes the woofer get lower and make a bit more spl, so it catches up to the tweeter a bit. All around good mod/repair.

 

Thanks.

Srinath.

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1 hour ago, MookieStl said:

I have used the 5.25 several times so hard to be certain. I just wanted to give you a heads up before you went with the 5".

Will have to look beyond PE, as they have nothing that is 5.25".  More world out there, but I trust PE to generally make things easy, reliable, and right priced. 

Dave

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5 minutes ago, Srinath said:

BTW there is an ebay seller that sells rubber surrounds that rea perfect fit for these.

Sheesh. At the price, will give it a shot!  Thank goodness I didn't toss the thing after removing and inspecting.  I could screw this up a couple of times before reaching the price of a replacement.  THANKS! 

Dave

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39 minutes ago, dirtmudd said:

you used these ? found my receipt still in the box from 98.

Yep.  Bought mine a few years earlier...four for my first surround HT system.  Loved them.  Not sure what became of the other two, but still had two around.  Will attempt repair using the 10.00 worth of parts suggested by srinath.  Love these at about 3 feet away and 4 feet apart. 

Dave

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39 minutes ago, Mallette said:

Will have to look beyond PE, as they have nothing that is 5.25".  More world out there, but I trust PE to generally make things easy, reliable, and right priced. 

Dave

I found 32 woofers at 5.25", Dave.  There are several buyouts in that group as well at very reasonable prices $10.

 

https://www.parts-express.com/cat/woofers/15?N=19809+4294967118+4294964883&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_PortalID"%2C"1")+and+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_Searchable"%2C"1")]&PortalID=1

+++

 

I am following your Son of Sound Cube as well.  If you get a chance, can you post a pic?  I'd like to see your rig.

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Rubber surround and rubber cement and you can try it a few times easily before it gets too hard to clean. I have a few that I boogered up. Slso I found the yfit nicer with the surround under the cone but experiment away. I have a set of infinitys where the woofer I did under and the mid I did over cos that's the way they fit right. Sure looks funny.

Just don't do left one way and the right speaker the other way. LOL.

Thanks.

Srinath.

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While it may still be a year, I intend to report what I have to Klipsch and the regional sales rep and get them to set up a listening session.  Think it will make good demo stuff in the tradition of PWK.  Having access to his notes on his stereo tests in the early 50s, having learned from them, and having a sense what he was after, I think he would approve of my efforts...if not my results.  Just yesterday, I transferred a tape accompanied by maybe 30 pages of notes and diagrams.  It was an imaging test, both of speakers and of various mike plans.  John Eargle was involved.  The results are fascinating.  Playback was on a 3 channel Heritage system.  Won't go farther, but with the permission and input of Jim Hunter may scan the notes, post the tapes, and open a discussion on this at some point.  These tests were done in 1959 and are a serious bit of audio history. 

 

Let's just say I think I've learned enough about PWK to suggest he'd have gone this direction, but undoubtedly sooner and with better results. 

 

Dave

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10 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

I found 32 woofers at 5.25", Dave. 

No idea how I missed that.  Will mull whether to give that a shot, or go with the cheaper DIY recone suggested by srinath.  I DID check mounting hole to mounting hole center, and it's 5 3/8.  @Srinathis the issue the diameter of the speaker, or the mounting holes?  PE will certainly answer a question about mounting hole distance.  That will help...

Dave

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2 minutes ago, Mallette said:

No idea how I missed that. 

It's too easy to miss that Dave, due to their search verbiage.  If you looked for "mid woofer" you would completely miss the ones I linked to.

 

I love their DIY knock down cabinets, but they use some other goofy term other than "knock down cabinet."  I can't find them half the time and I already know what I'm looking for.

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Feel better, Dave.  I have found search engines incredibly short on the ability to offer intelligent suggestions.  As to Son of SoundCube, here is a picture of the assembled coincident quad 1" condenser mikes, and the boom I use them on.  I am currently using my vintage Radius 10 tube mike preamp and a Roland R44 recorder.  When I get to "serious" recording I will be using two Tascam 3000 DSD recorders synced.  However, finding no real issues with the Roland at 24/88.2 at the moment. 

 

Dave

SonofSoundCube.JPG

boom.jpg

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Nice pics Dave, very interesting rig.  It looks like you put a lot of time and engineering into getting your setup just right.

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12 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

Nice pics Dave, very interesting rig.  It looks like you put a lot of time and engineering into getting your setup just right.

 

Blame PWK for that.  Hard to find recordings good enough for Heritage.  After several hundred hours transferring his experiments, I get the idea he felt the same way.  His stuff was better in the mid 50s than 98 percent of the recordings made last year. 

 

I am assuming you might be interested in, and perhaps have not seen in previous posting some years ago, my paper on the subject.  Recently updated, but over a decade old. 

 

Dave

sixcard.pdf

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Dave-

 

Will the resulting recordings need the Dynaco Quadaptor to be optimized?

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12 hours ago, Mallette said:

No idea how I missed that.  Will mull whether to give that a shot, or go with the cheaper DIY recone suggested by srinath.  I DID check mounting hole to mounting hole center, and it's 5 3/8.  @Srinathis the issue the diameter of the speaker, or the mounting holes?  PE will certainly answer a question about mounting hole distance.  That will help...

Dave

 

Recone ???? not my method, in fact I cant recone nothing. Re-foam - yes.

BTW I believe that the parts express woofer is the rat shack woofer. They look identical don't they. I'd almost say $10 and throw it in and walk away. In fact I'd be happy to buy your old woofers off you, cos I have a whole slew of the surrounds lying about in my old house with nary a 5.25 left without foam. And I have a 5.25 with wicket VC rub.

 

Thanks.

Srinath.

 

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