Who wants to measure how much power (voltage) is REALLY needed?

[mark1101]

OK.......what about the swamping resistor?  That eats as much power as the music.......

 

In fact I have realized that when that fellow came over with his 2 watt amp I had ESNs in my Khorns.  3-way ESNs actually have 2 swamping resistors.......Hmmmm.

 

OK, what happens when a giant bass note comes along?  Just wondering.

 

You sure the calculation is telling what it really takes to deliver the clean punch?

[tube fanatic]

All passive crossovers, even those with a fairly constant impedance, eat some power.  It should not be of concern.  Without knowing more about your friend's 2 watt amp, it's hard to know why it sounded poorly.  As to this test, the calculation is certainly telling you what you need to know.  You are determining the listening level (the only variable in the test other than the test frequency), and the rest is simply based on Ohm's law.  As to bass notes, you can choose to do the test with other low frequency tones.  As long as they are available at -12 db (you can use other levels, but the math will become a bit more complicated which is why Pano chose what he did- he wanted things to be simple), and you have a multimeter which can accurately read the chosen frequency, the results will be accurate.  Just remember that you must play the music selections and the test tones on the same device.

 

Maynard   

[alzinski]

Swamping resistor?   Are those added to lower the impedance of the sqawker after changing the autotransformer tap to attenuate the mid horn?

 

The 2 watt amp your buddy brought over could have not had enough power for your preference and you were running it near clipping. Or the amp could have been designed poorly. 

[garyrc]

7 hours ago, mark1101 said:

OK.......what about the swamping resistor?  That eats as much power as the music.......

 

In fact I have realized that when that fellow came over with his 2 watt amp I had ESNs in my Khorns.  3-way ESNs actually have 2 swamping resistors.......Hmmmm.

 

OK, what happens when a giant bass note comes along?  Just wondering.

 

You sure the calculation is telling what it really takes to deliver the clean punch?

 

I'm interested in the answers to the above questions, too, especially the "giant bass note" one and the "clean punch" one.

 

I don't have a multimeter at the moment, so I'll have to wait.  My old amplifier had a [so called] peak reading meter, measuring watts.  On one Mahler symphony, and also on the Sonic Spectaculars Chrystal Clear Records version of "Fanfare for the Common Man,," using my Khorns, I got up to 25 watts per channel in a 4,000 cu ft. + room.  

 

I believe you guys, as to the sine wave measurement, but I wonder why PWK's chart (Dope from Hope, January 1977, I think) indicated that to get 105 dB (the THX fs for main speakers) in a 3,000 cu. ft. room, with a Khorn, one would need 6.3 watts, at least for that moment, and with very good amplifiers one could expect 10 dB peaks (115 dB in this example) for milleseconds, but for that brief time, you would need 63 watts with a Khorn.  He also said to simulate the "blood stirring" sound of a symphony orchestra, you would need "115 dB peaks at your ears."  I understand those are brief peaks.  He said one of his 3 channel "wide stage stereo," fully horn loaded systems could do that with three 20 watt amplifiers, but that assumes that the most impactive sound is not way off the one side.  I hate it when percussion or piano is located way off to the side of an orchestra ... should be in the center, IMO.

 

 

[alzinski]

On 5/13/2017 at 6:16 PM, mark1101 said:

OK.......what about the swamping resistor?  That eats as much power as the music.......

 

In fact I have realized that when that fellow came over with his 2 watt amp I had ESNs in my Khorns.  3-way ESNs actually have 2 swamping resistors.......Hmmmm.

 

OK, what happens when a giant bass note comes along?  Just wondering.

 

You sure the calculation is telling what it really takes to deliver the clean punch?

 

 

The music doesn't eat any power. The drivers and crossover parts do.

 

What happens when a giant bass not comes along? What do you think happens?

 

You sure your calculation is telling what it really takes to deliver the clean punch? 

 

Your digital source has a max output defined by it's power supply rails. Let's say 1Vrms, or 2.8v peak to peak.  As long as your amp can cleanly pass this into the load there shouldn't be an issue. The load will be frequency dependant of course. Your speakers may dip down at certain low frequencies and present a tough load.

 

The test still tells you what you need to know you just have to know how to interpret the data. For example if you know your speakers dip down to 4 ohms then calculate the power needed from the voltage test for a 4 ohm load.

 

 

 

The test uses as stated several times a steady state signal -12db down from your source's max output.

 

If you have specific question about a crossover please post the schematic. I am sure someone can answer it.

 

 

[Wirrunna]

After setting the volume control to "just uncomfortable" listening levels I made several measurements -

Tone active -

120Hz   1.365v   1.863225w   91db

240Hz   1.210v   1.4641w       92db

 

Tone defeat -

120Hz   1.236v   1.527696     90db

240Hz   1.237v   1.530169     91db

 

Amp NAD C725BEE, Meter TES 2360 LCR 4digit, SPL Dayton iMM-6 into AudioTools on Nexus 5X. SPL measured at prime listening position 4.3 m from speakers.

 

[tube fanatic]

10 hours ago, Wirrunna said:

After setting the volume control to "just uncomfortable" listening levels I made several measurements -

Tone active -

120Hz   1.365v   1.863225w   91db

240Hz   1.210v   1.4641w       92db

 

Tone defeat -

120Hz   1.236v   1.527696     90db

240Hz   1.237v   1.530169     91db

 

Amp NAD C725BEE, Meter TES 2360 LCR 4digit, SPL Dayton iMM-6 into AudioTools on Nexus 5X. SPL measured at prime listening position 4.3 m from speakers.

 

Thanks for posting!  Which speakers are you using?

 

I'm totally amazed that with 1133 views, and 72 posts, only 3 guys have posted measurement results (I'm one of them)!!!  Given how often questions show up on here asking for advice on amplifier power for Klipsch speakers, I had expected many to jump all over this.  It is about the simplest measurement a person could make and provides very significant, useful, information.  So, how about it?  The entire process can be done in less than 2 minutes on the clock (I even had my wife do it while I observed).  I'm especially interested in measurements by the guys who have been critical of doing a measurement like this.

 

Maynard

 

 

[minermark]

24 minutes ago, tube fanatic said:

 So, how about it?

The last time i cranked my system was Jan 2/17, Richard, the old guy next door died.

I assure you, "The" last tunes he would ever hear was me.

Not quite ready to break-in the "New" Neighbors.

[muel]

2 hours ago, minermark said:

The last time i cranked my system was Jan 2/17, Richard, the old guy next door died.

I assure you, "The" last tunes he would ever hear was me.

Not quite ready to break-in the "New" Neighbors.

Cause and effect?

Now THAT is loud!

 

18 hours ago, alzinski said:

 

...What happens when a giant bass not comes along? What do you think happens?

 

You sure your calculation is telling what it really takes to deliver the clean punch? 

 

I assume Roy gets pretty excited if a giant bass comes along!

[alzinski]

My better half went out for brunch so I had some time to do some very loud listening on my La Scala's.

 

With the volume to where it pretty much drove me out of the room, and where if I was cleaning the whole house I could hear it clearly from every room I measured 1.8v.

 

There you have it, 1.8v and most likely 3.25w amp would do which would explain why I havne't found the need to use anything other than a 5 watt single ended tube amplfier. I did hook up some huge Scott 265a mono's a week ago and my ears were ringing after. I didn't kill any neighbors    Maybe next time.

[alzinski]

18 hours ago, wdecho said:

I have a number of 2 watt or less tube amps and they are not created equal. My SE 45 tube amp with 2 watts will hold it's own with any amp I own with my LaScala's whereas other 2 watt ones will not. To be sure, for most owners of our speakers, I recommend at least 5 watts of SET power especially over the cheaper 2 watt ones. 

 

 

Yes I agree. Not all amps are created equal. Some can hang others can't. You sound like you have quite the collection.

[mark1101]

On 5/13/2017 at 8:42 PM, alzinski said:

Swamping resistor?   Are those added to lower the impedance of the sqawker after changing the autotransformer tap to attenuate the mid horn?

 

The 2 watt amp your buddy brought over could have not had enough power for your preference and you were running it near clipping. Or the amp could have been designed poorly. 

 

............Not my buddy.  Friends don't let friends run 2 wpc amps............

 

Your darn tootin' it did not have enough power for my preference..........an understatement.

 

You guys enjoy proving it'll get the job done.  Love this thread.   

 

Everyone who spent the big bucks on nice power amps like the big McIntosh..........they all have no idea what they are doing and it will sound no better than the guys with the 2 wpc or the big 7 wpc.  

[jazzmessengers]

On 5/12/2017 at 2:06 PM, mark1101 said:

I can remember several years ago a forum member asked if he could come over and bring a 2 (two) wpc tube amp he had to try on my Klipschorns.  I had Khorns at the time and said sure come over and we'll give it a try.

 

A friend was over that day and we had my Peach and VRDs cranking when this guy arrived with his little toy.  Had been into it and enjoying the tunes.

 

We shut down and let him connect his little toy.

 

It did just what you guys are saying.  It drove the Khorns...........but it was crap compared to what we had been listening to.  While it was making some volume it wasn't anywhere near the sound stage, detail, and punch of the more powerful tube amps.  In fact in the end I'd say it sucked and I would never have anything like that.  But it did make volume, I'll give it that.

 

Just relating one experience with some low powered tubes after listening to some good tube amps with more power. 

 

I also tried a couple of those little PWM (TRI-Path) amps.  Same thing.  They make volume and even have some decent clarity until they come apart at top end.  But they are just cheap toys and don't compare in ANY way to something like a 60 WPC VRD in the sound stage, micro detail, and PUNCH.

 

I would love to get a hold of Pass first watt.  I bet some of those do much better on Klipsch than the little 3 watt tube toys.  I'd love to try one of those.

 

IME damping factor will also play a big role if these amps are being used full range. Where I find SET sounds good is 1) headphone amps and 2) active systems with the SET only driving midrange/treble horns with extreme sensitivity with flat and high impedance.

 

I would not use them with bass horns, even those extreme SETs like the 833 at 100 wpc since the damping factor won't match SS.

[jwc]

29 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

Everyone who spent the big bucks on nice power amps like the big McIntosh..........they all have no idea what they are doing and it will sound no better than the guys with the 2 wpc or the big 7 wpc

lol

[JohnA]

On 5/12/2017 at 5:47 PM, derrickdj1 said:

This is the way I look at it.  I would say my average listening level peaks at around 85 watts and the main music is less.  I'm into a lot of jazz and easy listening to type music so, no rock'N' out at 115+ db. levels.  The music just won't sound good.

 

Well, this is the test to discover the truth and confirm your estimate.  Drag out Thelma Houston and Pressure Cooker, "I've Got The Music In Me" and find out.  Holly Cole would surely be 1/100th the power you'll put into "I've Got The Music". 

 

Did you really mean 85 dB? 

[derrickdj1]

56 minutes ago, John Albright said:

Did you really mean 85 dB?

Yes, I really don't listen very loud.   On the avr it is most of the time less than -30 MV.  This is an average listening level in the 70 db range.  I do occasionally turn things up with movies and will play short clips up 130 db.

 

 

[Wirrunna]

8 hours ago, tube fanatic said:

Thanks for posting!  Which speakers are you using?

 

Maynard

 

 

Maynard,

K-Horns, details of room and amp here http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/118361-k-horn-crossovers-from-ak-3-to-universal-to-es/

[jwc]

If the music sounds good and grips my emotions, I can't help but to turn it up.

 

 

[mark1101]

Good Lord.  I have been using exclusively Klipsch speakers for 40 years now.  I thought this was a cool thread at first because it just reminds everyone what many of us have known all along that you need very little power to get some impressive volume out of Klipsch.  Have to remind myself that there are also new folks here who may not be so familiar and so a throw back thread to show some numbers reinforcing the original marketing theme is not a bad thing.

 

What the thread gets on the edge of is that.............all you need is flea power and all else is waste.  Has not been stated but can be read between the lines.  Not taking a shot at ANYONE..........but again, some new folks are around and we want you to know if you invested in some wattage your still OK with some of us. 

 

Count me in that flea makes sound but not the sound all of us prefer............just cause it appears to be enough.  Let there please be a few extra watts.   

[tube fanatic]

18 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

Good Lord.  I have been using exclusively Klipsch speakers for 40 years now.  I thought this was a cool thread at first because it just reminds everyone what many of us have known all along that you need very little power to get some impressive volume out of Klipsch.  Have to remind myself that there are also new folks here who may not be so familiar and so a throw back thread to show some numbers reinforcing the original marketing theme is not a bad thing.

 

What the thread gets on the edge of is that.............all you need is flea power and all else is waste.  Has not been stated but can be read between the lines.  Not taking a shot at ANYONE..........but again, some new folks are around and we want you to know if you invested in some wattage your still OK with some of us. 

 

Count me in that flea makes sound but not the sound all of us prefer............just cause it appears to be enough.  Let there please be a few extra watts.   

Mark, you are not getting it!!!  No one is trying to push the use of flea power tube amps with Klipsch speakers in all situations. How about measuring your power requirements and showing us some numbers so we can understand your particular situation?  You have been critical of Pano's test procedure, but have not backed up your assertions with any science!  This thread is intended to be educational (which is why I would enjoy seeing measurements by the high power SS guys as well as the tube guys).

 

Maynard