Stereo, Pure and Direct, Where is it at?

[derrickdj1]

The question is how many use Stereo, pure or direct when enjoying 2 channel.  Don't answer right away.  It is a bit complicated.  Direct and pure will bypass some audio processing.  This approach is different using some integrated amps vs an avr.  Let's not get into is one better than the other because there are to many variables.  Two observations, many integrated amps don't have sub connection or XO adjustment.  At the same time, many integrated amp are of higher quality than the budget or mid level avr.  This is a large gray area and not meant to be a point of discussion.

 

So, is the best two channel without a sub and large towers, or and avr with the lowest XO possible to keep the sound of the mains as the dominant sound or can it be achieved using a higher XO with a sub.  Keep in mind that even the best mains are position limited due to optimal imaging and that the best place for bass may be some other part of the room.  Do you use any of these modes and is there a true difference in direct/ pure or stereo.  II will answer this question later pertaining to only my setup.

 

Is a three way speaker better than a 2 way or is this a minor point.  There are limitation with both types of speaker and how much does size matter.  Most of this discussion should only pertain to our Klipsch speakers.  These speakers all share enough common traits to be discussed and including other brands will take us off on to a tangent in to many directions.  Keep the discussion to only what you hear with two channel, your system on other Klipsch systems.  No theory or models so that the sound we hear is the most important factor in this discussion..  Amplification, sources,ect all are assumed to be equal and adequate.  So, no need to talk about this speaker is so revealing or only these are the best sources.  It is fair to talk about integrated amps vs avr's vs the use on non use of a subwoffer.  In essence, what are the strengths and weaknesses of your system.  

 

I will start, I use both an integrated but, limited amp, no subwoffer output or XO settings and also an avr/amp combo with 2 subs.  I like both but differences do show up depending on the music and some music sounds better on one vs the other but, both are very satisfying.  There is no right or wrong but, I'm interested on what you settled on and why.

[garyrc]

44 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

... I will start, I use both an integrated but, limited amp, no subwoffer output or XO settings and also an avr/amp combo with 2 subs.  I like both but differences do show up depending on the music and some music sounds better on one vs the other but, both are very satisfying.  There is no right or wrong but, I'm interested on what you settled on and why.

Are your two systems in the same room, on an equivalent wall? 

 

I use an AV preamp/processor and three separate power amps (2 channels each).  I use this single set up both for 2 channel and also 5.1 for movies, in the same room.  It's not quite the comparison you asked for, but with two channel, the sub/no sub comparison is interesting (at least to me).  NO SUB, with the mains set on LARGE is superior in clarity and clean, tight attack, and with most music is better.  That being said, the bass is smooth to only about 30/35 Hz (which is plenty for most music) and extends down to 24, but with much attenuation.  WITH SUB, mains set on SMALL, XO at either 80 or 40Hz, the bass goes much lower, but is not as clean or tight.  In general, with music, I prefer no sub.  

 

I must add the verboten.  Even though I resisted trying it for about 5 years, with PL II Music, using 5.1, the increased spatiality with music gives straight two channel a run for its money.  And, guess what?  With Audyssey FLAT, NO DEQ, it sounds better (clearer and more open), under any circumstances..

[pbphoto]

I use a 16 year old low-end Yamaha AVR with an external amp for both 2-channel and movies.  It just won't die.  There is no pure-direct on this old model but I do have it set to 'effect off' that, best as I can tell, still digitizes the 2-channel signal but doesn't add any processing to it.  Bass is configured in the old-school "double bass" method where the mains are set to 'large' and bass below 120hz is also duplicated to the sub and feathered-in with the mains via controls on the sub.  Many say this is wrong nowadays, but it sounds damn good.  I've done two experiments where I've setup my source to bypass the Yamaha via a passive A/B switch, and in both cases, neither me or my teenage kids with good ears have been able to tell a difference in sound going through the AVR versus bypassing the AVR and going directly to the amp.

 

I'm considering a 2017 Yamaha AVR or Pre-pro and changing my 2-channel setup to a more modern approach: speakers set to 'small', subwoofer controlled by the AVR crossover, YPAO room correction etc.

[Schu]

personal preference...

 

if using an AVR (which I do not for 2 channel any longer) is speakers set to large, sub crossed as low as possible (probably around 50Hz) and processing set to pure direct.

 

I dont use an avr for anything but 5.1 any longer... in 5.1 I still use pure direct for music.

 

 

[derrickdj1]

7 hours ago, garyrc said:

Are your two systems in the same room, on an equivalent wall? 

Yes, the 2 systems are in the same room and the same speakers are used for both.  The Avr/amp combo offers the Direct and Pure mode or plain stereo with all eq engaged.  In the past I've favored using the Direct setting with minimal processing.  In the Pure mode, the bass was thinner.  I never use the tone controls to increase the bass or treble and let the avr EQ run the show.  This system also uses two subs.

 

When using the tube amp, the BDP does the processing, speakers are ran as large.  I believe I get a bit more midrange performance with this setup.  It may be that it is easier to pick out since this system does not use any subs.  The differences between the two system is close and not a night and day difference.  The tube amp system also has an outboard EQ'lizer.

 

I no longer use the Direct and Pure mode.  The plain stereo mode sounds just as good.  Both systems use a flat frequency response.  I have put up room treatments  and this may have something to do with not getting any benefit from using the Direct and Pure mode.

[Terry Palmer]

I thought if you use pure direct, it by passes the sub out. It does on my AVR Denon. I run a Denon AVR for my 5.1 and a separate 2 channel older Denon solid state amp with phono for separate speakers for vinyl and CD.

 

 

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[derrickdj1]

52 minutes ago, Terry Palmer said:

I thought if you use pure direct, it by passes the sub out. It does on my AVR Denon.

Great point Terry.  We are all using different avr's and they vary widely in what they are doing.  I am sure of what works with my Pioneer is not directly applicable to Auddysee based systems.

[Terry Palmer]

Yes, it could be just the audysee systems that do


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[Thaddeus Smith]

I have an Onkyo TX-NR1010 and here's the description in the manual..

 

 

[pbphoto]

"Pure Direct" and "Direct" are more marketing terms.  Every manufacturer has a different take.  Some allow a subwoofer to be added when using Pure Direct via an 'extra bass', 'double bass', or 'LFE+Main' setting.  Most manufacturers still digitize the signal even in 'Pure Direct' mode; the signal still goes through an A-->D and D-->A conversion but it bypasses the DSP stuff.  A few manufacturers allow for a pure analog path in their AVRs and usually advertise it clearly - Anthem, Arcam, and I've heard rumors that some Marantz AVRs allow a pure analog signal via certain analog-in ports.

 

IMHO, if you want to guarantee a pure analog signal path from your TT or expensive DAC to your speakers, then go buy an integrated amp from the 1970s.  Now, whether or not this is even important or noticeable today is a different matter.

[twk123]

56 minutes ago, pbphoto said:

"Pure Direct" and "Direct" are more marketing terms.  Every manufacturer has a different take.  Some allow a subwoofer to be added when using Pure Direct via an 'extra bass', 'double bass', or 'LFE+Main' setting.  Most manufacturers still digitize the signal even in 'Pure Direct' mode; the signal still goes through an A-->D and D-->A conversion but it bypasses the DSP stuff.  A few manufacturers allow for a pure analog path in their AVRs and usually advertise it clearly - Anthem, Arcam, and I've heard rumors that some Marantz AVRs allow a pure analog signal via certain analog-in ports.

 

IMHO, if you want to guarantee a pure analog signal path from your TT or expensive DAC to your speakers, then go buy an integrated amp from the 1970s.  Now, whether or not this is even important or noticeable today is a different matter.

I think this is an important factor when setting up your component chain. Audio components can only degrade the pure source so if you have an expensive DAC that is re-digitized into a AVR then it may be better to get an AVR with an integrated DAC so the digital signal is processed and converted to analog only once.

[Kevin S]

In my Onkyo TX NR3008, in both Pure and Direct, there is no output to the subwoofer. I cannot remember it actually saying that anywhere in the manual, but I read it in a review and naturally confirmed it. So I listen in Stereo, subs crossed over at 40hz. Because I cross the subs over so low, there is very little difference in Stereo, Pure and Direct on most music. I do not use Audyssey. My Heresy's measure 3-6 db down at 40hz in my room. Their bass on music sounds better to me than my subs.

[Schu]

with Pioneer... you can have the sub/lfe signal "on", "off" or "plus" (I think its plus). it's off while using on/off when in pure and pure direct (I think) and always on using "plus" regardless of mode.

[garyrc]

4 hours ago, Terry Palmer said:

 

Yes, it could be just the audysee systems that do

 

 

My Audyssey equipped Marantz AV preamp/processor makes the sub out usable in [2 channel] Stereo, with or without Audyssey on.

 

EDIT: Since several people have mentioned using LARGE on the mains, even when using a sub, I'll add a point [based on my room and equipment only]:  I used to use LARGE with LFE + MAIN all the time, on the grounds that a REW sweep showed no phase cancellation and no attenuation due to phase problems.  I did this for the common reason that I was (and am) in love with my mains.  For a very few problem movies, I still use LARGE, LFE + MAIN.  These are movies that need a bit of extra bass and are invariably from the '50s and '60's, with good fidelity, but practically no bass below, say, 30 Hz (in another room, or with speakers positioned differently, I might get less bass with LARGE & LFE+MAIN.  For the record, the front main speakers are in the front corners of a room 16.75 feet wide, 25 feet long, and a has a ceiling that slopes from 8.5 feet in the front where the main speakers are, to 11.83 feet high in the back., Volume is 4,243 cu.ft., the sub is slightly off center between the mains, and hidden).  Then I saw a video in which a professional who remixed movies for Blu-ray essentially said he would sometimes sneak some true LFE sound effects into the mains, even in the sub zone of < 80 Hz..  Remembering the incredible explosions, etc. that are in some films, I decided that prudence would dictate trying the mains on SMALL and letting the sub take the brunt.  It was just as good.  I didn't miss the "double bass" except with films made before about 2000.  I haven't found a music disk that I need LARGE on with the sub engaged.  But ... on several .... without the slight "mud" of the sub, the mains only are better, in which case they must be on LARGE.

[robert_kc]

I've chosen the high-end Oppo products because they are "universal players" (Blu-ray audio (e.g., Solti Ring) and video (e.g., opera and ballet), high-res FLAC, SACD, CD) and have a high-quality DAC built-in.  I have multiple Oppo units installed in several different stereo hi-fi systems:  UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95, and DV-980H. 

 

The Oppo units listed above have variable output (i.e., volume control on remote) enabling them to be connected directly to a tube power amp (i.e., no pre-amp).   And the Oppo's have "bass management" - i.e., a built-in crossover, and a connection for a powered subwoofer.   With Oppo's bass management, the low frequencies are off-loaded from the main amp and speakers, which differs from a "double bass" implementation of a subwoofer (which is common) wherein low freqs are sent to both the main speakers and the sub.    The low freqs eat up a lot of power.   With the Oppo's implementation, the main amp and speakers are less likely to overload (and sound congested or distorted) during fff passages of classical music. 

 

I’ve set-up my UDP-205 the same as my BDP-105 and BDP-95 when connecting the dedicated stereo analog RCA outputs to a stereo amp, and connecting a powered subwoofer to the Oppo (i.e., 2.1 configuration).  I use the UDP-205's dedicated stereo analog RCA outputs to a stereo amp (usually a vintage tube power amp), and connect a powered subwoofer to the Oppo (i.e., 2.1 configuration).  

 

No multi-channel.   No HDMI audio.   No AVR.

 

Oppo settings:

 

Audio Output Setup

 

Secondary Audio:  “Off”

 

HDMI Audio Format:  "Off".  

 

S / PDIF Output:   192k LPCM  (I don’t think this comes into play, but not certain.)

 

SACD Priority:  "Stereo".  

 

SACD Output:   PCM.   (If "SACD Output" is set to "PCM", then the UDP-205’s bass management functionality is engaged, i.e., bass for SACDs is sent to the subwoofer.   If "SACD Output" is set to "DSD", then bass for SACDs is NOT sent to the subwoofer.)

 

A/V Synch:  0

 

Audio Processing Setup

 

Go to the Setup Menu and select Audio Processing.

Select Stereo Signal and change it to Front Left/Right.

Go to Speaker Configuration.

Set the Downmix Mode to Stereo.

Set each of the connected speakers to Small and set the subwoofer to On.

Exit Speaker Configuration and set the Crossover setting to whatever your preference is.

 

 

I have crossover set to 80Hz. 

Output Volume:  Variable

Power up Volume:  40.  

Max Volume:  100.

Dynamic Range Control:  Off

Filter Characteristics:  Mini Phase Fast  (I haven’t experimented with this parameter.)

 

When the player is configured as detailed above, audio from a source that does not have a dedicated .1 or LFE track will be directed to the subwoofer based on the crossover frequency you select.

 

I have more than 2 dozen amps installed in 5 systems, and I’ve found equipment combinations/configurations that work well.  (Not all do.)  In 3 of my systems I have a power amp that I drive directly from the Oppo.  However, some power amps sound better with a pre-amp.  (In each system I have switches and patch panels that enable me to select which amp I want.)

 

I also connected a Chromecast Audio via a TosLink cable to the UDP-205 and BDP-105, and it works successfully.

 

Based on my experience using Oppo players for several years, this configuration works for SACDs, CDs, Blu-ray (audio and video), DVDs, downloaded FLAC, etc.  

With these settings, I realize excellent sound quality (assuming a good quality recording).   For example, the UDP-205 connected to a pair of 1950's era McIntosh MC30 tube power amps sounds fabulous.

 

On the Oppo’s remote, I can select “Pure Audio”, which mutes the video display.

 

My systems:

 

Living room:  The speakers are Snell Type CV.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch P-312W.  The source components are Oppo UDP-205 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings), and Dual 1249 with Stanton 681EE.  Amps include a pair of McIntosh MC30s, Scott 296, McIntosh MX110 / McIntosh MC275, a pair of Pilot HF-56 mono receivers, an NAD pre-amp and Acurus A250 power-amp for movies, and a McIntosh 2155 driving JBL L830s in the kitchen / dining room.   A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp.   Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

 

TV room:  The speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-37F.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch P-312W.  The source is an Oppo BDP-105 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings).  The amps are Scott 399, Fisher 800B, Kenwood KR-9050, Pioneer SX-1980 is being sold to be replaced by McIntosh MC225, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MC240, and an NAD C375BEE.   The tube amps are for music.   The solid-state amps are for movies.   A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switches connect the Oppo to the amp.   Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

 

Office: The speakers are JBL L880.  Source:   Oppo DV-980H SACD/CD/DVD.  Amps: Fisher 500C, Scott 299B, Altec 353A, and an NAD D 3020 for general internet use (and summertime).   Banana jacks allow me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp.  

Basement:  The speakers are Klipsch RF-7.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch R-115SW.  Source:  Oppo BDP-95.  Amps: Scott 272, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO, Scott 222C, McIntosh MX110Z tuner/preamp, Fisher KX-200, Marantz 2325 solid state receiver, Pilot SA-260, Scott 210F (mono), Fisher TA 500 (mono), Scott LK150.   A patch panel allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo, and a power amp to the MX110Z.   Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

 

Bedroom:  The speaker is a Klipsch WF-35.  Source is an older CD player.  Fisher TA 500 (AM/FM mono receiver).  Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

 

----------------

 

P.S.  I can quickly change from 2.1 to 2.0 via the Oppo's menus.

 

 

 

[garyrc]

31 minutes ago, robert_kc said:

I've chosen the high-end Oppo products because they are "universal players" (Blu-ray audio (e.g., Solti Ring) and video (e.g., opera and ballet), high-res FLAC, SACD, CD) and have a high-quality DAC built-in.  I have multiple Oppo units installed in several different stereo hi-fi systems:  UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95, and DV-980H. 

 

...    With Oppo's bass management, the low frequencies are off-loaded from the main amp and speakers, which differs from a "double bass" implementation of a subwoofer (which is common) wherein low freqs are sent to both the main speakers and the sub.    The low freqs eat up a lot of power.   With the Oppo's implementation, the main amp and speakers are less likely to overload (and sound congested or distorted) during fff passages of classical music. 

 

... Oppo settings:

 

Audio Output Setup

 

Secondary Audio:  “Off”

 

HDMI Audio Format:  "Off".  

 

S / PDIF Output:   192k LPCM  (I don’t think this comes into play, but not certain.)

SACD Priority:  "Stereo".  

 

SACD Output:   PCM.   (If "SACD Output" is set to "PCM", then the UDP-205’s bass management functionality is engaged, i.e., bass for SACDs is sent to the subwoofer.   If "SACD Output" is set to "DSD", then bass for SACDs is NOT sent to the subwoofer.)

 

A/V Synch:  0

 

Audio Processing Setup

 

 

 

Go to the Setup Menu and select Audio Processing.

Select Stereo Signal and change it to Front Left/Right.

Go to Speaker Configuration.

Set the Downmix Mode to Stereo.

Set each of the connected speakers to Small and set the subwoofer to On.

Exit Speaker Configuration and set the Crossover setting to whatever your preference is.

 

 

I have crossover set to 80Hz. 

Output Volume:  Variable

Power up Volume:  40.  

Max Volume:  100.

Dynamic Range Control:  Off

Filter Characteristics:  Mini Phase Fast  (I haven’t experimented with this parameter.)

 

When the player is configured as detailed above, audio from a source that does not have a dedicated .1 or LFE track will be directed to the subwoofer based on the crossover frequency you select.

I have more than 2 dozen amps installed in 5 systems, and I’ve found equipment combinations/configurations that work well.  (Not all do.)  In 3 of my systems I have a power amp that I drive directly from the Oppo.  However, some power amps sound better with a pre-amp.  (In each system I have switches and patch panels that enable me to select which amp I want.)

 

I also connected a Chromecast Audio via a TosLink cable to the UDP-205 and BDP-105, and it works successfully.

Based on my experience using Oppo players for several years, this configuration works for SACDs, CDs, Blu-ray (audio and video), DVDs, downloaded FLAC, etc.  

With these settings, I realize excellent sound quality (assuming a good quality recording).   For example, the UDP-205 connected to a pair of 1950's era McIntosh MC30 tube power amps sounds fabulous.

...

My systems:

 

Living room:  The speakers are Snell Type CV.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch P-312W.  The source components are Oppo UDP-205 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings), and Dual 1249 with Stanton 681EE.  Amps include a pair of McIntosh MC30s, Scott 296, McIntosh MX110 / McIntosh MC275, a pair of Pilot HF-56 mono receivers, an NAD pre-amp and Acurus A250 power-amp for movies, and a McIntosh 2155 driving JBL L830s in the kitchen / dining room.   A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp.   Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

 

TV room:  The speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-37F.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch P-312W.  The source is an Oppo BDP-105 (with USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings).  The amps are Scott 399, Fisher 800B, Kenwood KR-9050, Pioneer SX-1980 is being sold to be replaced by McIntosh MC225, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MC240, and an NAD C375BEE.   The tube amps are for music.   The solid-state amps are for movies.   A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switches connect the Oppo to the amp.   Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

Office: The speakers are JBL L880.  Source:   Oppo DV-980H SACD/CD/DVD.  Amps: Fisher 500C, Scott 299B, Altec 353A, and an NAD D 3020 for general internet use (and summertime).   Banana jacks allow me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and a Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switch connects the Oppo to the amp.  

Basement:  The speakers are Klipsch RF-7.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch R-115SW.  Source:  Oppo BDP-95.  Amps: Scott 272, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO, Scott 222C, McIntosh MX110Z tuner/preamp, Fisher KX-200, Marantz 2325 solid state receiver, Pilot SA-260, Scott 210F (mono), Fisher TA 500 (mono), Scott LK150.   A patch panel allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and F/F RCA cables enable me to connect an amp to the Oppo, and a power amp to the MX110Z.   Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

Bedroom:  The speaker is a Klipsch WF-35.  Source is an older CD player.  Fisher TA 500 (AM/FM mono receiver).  Chromecast Audio for internet radio and Spotify Premium.

 

After reading about your systems, I can only say, WOW! 

 

Love those fff passagess.

 

I used to use a tubed MC 30 on one channel, and a MC 40 on the other.  Truly nice.

 

"SACD Output:   PCM.   (If "SACD Output" is set to "PCM", then the UDP-205’s bass management functionality is engaged, i.e., bass for SACDs is sent to the subwoofer.   If "SACD Output" is set to "DSD", then bass for SACDs is NOT sent to the subwoofer.)"

 

How does SACD PCM with sub sound, compared to SACD DSD, in the upper bass, midrange, and treble?  I guess I'm asking whether SACD DSD actually sounds better than SACD PCM.  Thanks.

[robert_kc]

57 minutes ago, garyrc said:

 

 

"SACD Output:   PCM.   (If "SACD Output" is set to "PCM", then the UDP-205’s bass management functionality is engaged, i.e., bass for SACDs is sent to the subwoofer.   If "SACD Output" is set to "DSD", then bass for SACDs is NOT sent to the subwoofer.)"

 

How does SACD PCM with sub sound, compared to SACD DSD, in the upper bass, midrange, and treble?  I guess I'm asking whether SACD DSD actually sounds better than SACD PCM.  Thanks.

 

Based on my listening thus far, sound quality is not impaired by setting "SACD Output" to PCM.   The good news with the Oppo universal players, is that it is quick and easy to switch between "SACD DSD Output", to "SACD PCM Output with bass management".

 

The issue of using a subwoofer with large speakers (e.g., RF-7II) involves trade-offs, and potential frustrations.   IME, a remote control for the subwoofer is essential (e.g., Klipsch P-312W).     I can get the subwoofer set appropriately for classical music, and then some @#$%^& engineer inserts obnoxious LFE garbage in a Hollywood movie, and I need to turn the subwoofer down.    Bottom line, IME a subwoofer is not essential for enjoying most music with the RF-7 II and my Snell Type CV, however when "dialed in" correctly, the sub can enhance some music (e.g., pipe organ).   My Klipsch Palladium P-37F benefits more often from a subwoofer.

 

 

[DizRotus]

Derrick-

 

Your question implies the use of an AVR to listen to two-channel.  I confess to listening to, and enjoying, a lot of music -- YouTube, Spotify, etc. -- through my Onkyo AVR, but, when I seriously enjoy 2-channel, the AVR is not involved.

 

Two-channel is through a Gmarsh "Wiener" class D chip amp, with INuke powering the 4 DIY TH subs, or one of my refurbished h/k x30 receivers with or without the subs.