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KHorns and a room, new chapter.


heavyP

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14 hours ago, heavyP said:

what if the KH sound better ;-) as generally admitted here -  than the LS?

BUT most important, what if it sounds WORSE - in my environment...

This is a real possibility.  Either outcome is about equally likely from my viewpoint.

 

I believe that you'll need to do some acoustic treatment work in your room to get the most out of the Khorns, relative to the performance of the La Scalas without using acoustic treatments.  Khorns make use of room acoustics in a way that's more demanding in my experience.

 

What's not really being discussed is specifically what's different between Khorns and La Scalas:

 

1) A higher elevation of the tweeter and midrange horn mouths above the floor.  There are advantages and disadvantages to this related to floor and ceiling bounce and imaging potential.  This means that you'll likely wind up having to do something about the disadvantages acoustically.

 

2) The La Scalas have much better midbass performance in terms of polar control and frequency response.

 

3) The Khorns have at least an octave more low bass, but it's highly dependent on room geometry/dimensions, as you've indicated, and how the Khorns are arranged relative to the room corners.

 

The La Scala and Khorn use exactly the same tweeter and midrange drivers and horns, so there really are no differences there, i.e., only a slightly different shape of two front baffles and electrical crossover filters.

 

13 hours ago, jason str said:

The right subwoofer will make those La Scala's really shine.

I believe that this is a third option that could likely dominate the first two options--based on differing listening preferences and relative weight of your decision variables.  [The word "dominate" here is used in the sense of a choice among alternatives that always is selected given the choices, even using differing weights among the decision variables.]  But Jason is talking about an extension to your La Scalas' bass performance that is horn loaded and of the highest quality--not really direct radiating bass in my experience.  You might consider this alternative more closely.

 

1 hour ago, heavyP said:

what i liked and gives me hope is that even at lower sound level, the KH convey the whole spectrum with full bass weight and dynamics. but i know there will be an upper limit, as there is with any speaker in any given room.

Less high volume effects with the Khorn than you might suppose in terms of bass performance, but more issues related to floor and ceiling bounce of the midrange. 

 

But you've essentially got those same issues right now with your La Scalas, so they'll not be any worse and probably will perform better in that respect.

 

1 hour ago, heavyP said:

what matters most is the level of pleasure we can reach and the KH seems to have incredible potential.

Yes, but also it makes demands on your room and how you place them in the room with acoustic absorption and diffusion.

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thanks chris for your comments.

as the picture shows, the KH will be placed in the actual corners of the room - where the LS stands right now. there's no alternative to that.

i understand your point concerning the elevation of the wole mid/hicgh spectrum and possible outcome with wall/ceiling interactions  but there's no issues right now with the LS, they sound abfab with no specific "lack" of bass - xcept on recordings where bass or mastering of bass is missing or bad. thats what i really enjoy about the LS, compared to previous altec 19 - where a certain amount of volume was needed to  move that 15" and bass was either (too) loud or boomy or almost missing at lower volume.

this issue is probably settled with LS' higher sensitivity or filter engineering.

yesterday's experience of KH at my friends' is that they produce way much more bass resonnance than the LS -  almost too much for my sake - hence reminded me of the rampant issue of oversized speakers in smaller rooms which never works for me, but sometimes to the sincere joy of the systems' owners.

maybe this impression relied mainly on this particularly room, where many absorbers were installed on walls to treat resonance and echo issues and translated in boomy effect...

the sub is an alternative i don't feel necessary with the LS. The KH will either work in my room, maybe with some adjustments - or not.

i intend to build a wall library on this concrete rear wall for years now  - so maybe the KH sound will be a great incentive for some immediate action  ;-)

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@heavyP Let me comment on my experience with Khorns and La Scalas. I have a 13'X19' room. When I first setup my Khorns I had them on the 13' wall and they sounded terrible. Absolutely muddy and I thought I made the wrong decision. A couple days later I moved everything to the 19' wall. The Khorns opened up and provided me with the experience that everyone talks about. The 13' wall just didn't provide them with enough room to breathe. 

 

I also have a set of La Scalas that I use in my home theater in the basement room directly below with the same exact dimensions (shorter ceiling) I keep the La Scalas on the short 13' wall and they perform flawlessly with a subwoofer. 

 

In my opinion, you should stick with the La Scalas and add a sub with your size room. 

Just my 2 cents. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Lost240 said:

@heavyP Let me comment on my experience with Khorns and La Scalas. I have a 13'X19' room. When I first setup my Khorns I had them on the 13' wall and they sounded terrible. Absolutely muddy and I thought I made the wrong decision. A couple days later I moved everything to the 19' wall. The Khorns opened up and provided me with the experience that everyone talks about. The 13' wall just didn't provide them with enough room to breathe. 

 

I also have a set of La Scalas that I use in my home theater in the basement room directly below with the same exact dimensions (shorter ceiling) I keep the La Scalas on the short 13' wall and they perform flawlessly with a subwoofer. 

 

In my opinion, you should stick with the La Scalas and add a sub with your size room. 

Just my 2 cents. 

 

thanks Lost. very interesting comment that rallies Jason's. unfortunately, i have no possibility to turn the room over and place them on the long wall. the next corner is way too far for that.

my intuition is the KH won't work on this small wall. your own experience backs it up. thanks for your help for chasing the KH bug that keeps nagging at me ;-)

 

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There was a thread a week ago that focused on some of the things Chris mention.  It is not just about which speaker is better but, which speaker is better in my room.  I am in the camp that a sub will supplement one of the main differences between the KH and La Scala, the bass.  With the midrange and tweeter being the same, focusing on the bass performance is reasonably.  Picking the right speaker may avoid the need for some room Tx's with absorption and diffusion.

 

Concentrate on setup, a good equilateral triangle, imaging and be open on subwoofer placement.  A sub in between the speaker may work but, even a location in the rear or a side wall of the room may work.  

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In my experience with KHorns, the room is almost everything (remember, you're sitting inside of the bass horn). I had my KHorns in 5 different rooms over an 8-year period and can sum up my experience this way:

 

Everything else being equal...

  • They sound better in rooms with a rectangular floor plan than they do in rooms with floor plans that approach being square.
  • In rectangular rooms they sound best when placed along the long wall.
  • The larger the room the better they sound.
  • The further apart they are (within reason) the better they sound.
  • The more solid the corners the better they sound. Natural corners work best, followed by purpose-built artificial corners (I did this once, adding a half-height section of wall to form a corner, and that turned out to be the best-sounding room I ever had my KHorns in), followed by corners fashioned using large & heavy furniture (typically a bookcase) as one of the sides. In one room with a corner fashioned using a bookcase my KHorns sounded great; in another they didn't (although mostly for other reasons).
  • Avoid rooms with dimensions that are integer multiples of each other. I spent 16 years living in a house with a living room that measured 16 ft wide by 16 feet deep by 8 feet high, and the KHorns just wouldn't work in it. Their corner placement created far too many standing waves at too many different frequencies that were exaggerated by the room's dimensions, and they sounded terrible at any practical listening position (huge frequency-response swings, lack of bass impact, poor stereo imaging, the list goes on...). I finally replaced the KHorns with a pair of Cornwalls (placed away from the corners), which worked far, far better in that room.

When used in a "good" room, the experience of listening to 2-channel music through Klipschorns can't be matched by any other speakers I've ever heard (NOTE: I've NOT heard Jubilees). But in a "not so good" room they can be frustratingly disappointing, and can be bettered by any number of less expensive and less demanding speakers, no doubt including your LaScalas — with or without a subwoofer.

 

I'm not saying that your room would be a "not so good" room for KHorns; I'm only saying that in my experience, the more things that are right about it (large size, rectangular floor plan, non integer-multiple dimensions, long-wall placement in natural corners) the better the chances are that KHorns will sound even better in it than your LaScalas do.

 

P.S. For the past 20 or so years I've listened to music exclusively in multi-channel modes through my Klipsch THX home theater system (KT-LCRs and KT-DSs with a JBL 4641 subwoofer), and I'll never go back to plain old stereo, even if my old KHorn system would work in my current (cornerless) living room. FYI, my KHorn system was 3-channel L/C/R with a Cornwall center and a derived mono network built from plans published in one of the "Dope From Hopes", and was a huge improvement over 2-channel stereo.

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hi Hsos and thanks for your feedback on this.

the more i read and get feedback , the more it makes me reconsider the whole KH project. fact is, i really enjoy the La Scala the way they are - without  a matching sub - and the very idea of owning KHorns as the ultimate/lifetime speaker opportunity, as enticing as it is - is actually more like a fantasy which somehow, goes against my prime intuition. i've already been experiencing the limits and frustration of oversized speakers in a smaller room. my listening at this friend's place, though very exciting and spectacular; just proved me right - and his room is bigger than mine!

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2 minutes ago, heavyP said:

hi Hsos and thanks for your feedback on this.

the more i read and get feedback , the more it makes me reconsider the whole KH project. fact is, i really enjoy the La Scala the way they are - without  a matching sub - and the very idea of owning KHorns as the ultimate/lifetime speaker opportunity, as enticing as it is - is actually more like a fantasy which somehow, goes against my prime intuition. i've already been experiencing the limits and frustration of oversized speakers in a smaller room. my listening at this friend's place, though very exciting and spectacular; just proved me right - and his room is bigger than mine!

Someday, when you build a room especially to accommodate corner horns, you can put either Klipschorns or Klipsch Jubilees in there.  For now, enjoy the La Scalas!  From everything you've said about bass, I think if you ever get a subwoofer -- to go with any speakers -- you would want a horn loaded one, for clean, tight, precise bass..

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10 hours ago, garyrc said:

Someday, when you build a room especially to accommodate corner horns, you can put either Klipschorns or Klipsch Jubilees in there.  For now, enjoy the La Scalas!  From everything you've said about bass, I think if you ever get a subwoofer -- to go with any speakers -- you would want a horn loaded one, for clean, tight, precise bass..

 

hi Gary

this is exactly what i'm thinking. the opportunity woke up that ol' "what if" audio bug the La Scala had succeeded to cure. i must confess that the appeal of owning KH was very strong and almost conquered me, they are beautiful objects of audo desire.

i'm afraid a special designed room will never host any of these marvelous speakers as our house is great but lacks this possibility.

thanks everybody for your feedback and advice but i made up my mind about it. the La Scala stay ;-)

i exchanged messages and pics of my room with the french builder of Fitzpatrick subs and he can' figure any real improvement possible in my room configuration, as any horn loaded would be much too big to place anywhere...

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53 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Maybe improve the LaScala....  set a K510 or K402 on top of your LaScalas

 

You'd be surprised at what these will do for your sound (though nothing for the bass)

 

that's impressive! i'm sure there's plenty of improvments possible with the LS but right now i'm happy with them the way PWK designed it.

i listen almost exclusively to modern jazz and bass isn't an issue, only bad recordings or masterings are. ;-)

 

 

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Well, again, I may have missed it, but what is the width of your room?  That's different from what you gave me, the distance between your K-horns.  I got along for years with a room width of 11'; 13 to 15' is better, gives a more workable sweet spot.

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hi again. width is about 14 feet, that would leave about 6 feet between the KH, which seems very little. from what i've read and exchanged here and there, i will probably face similar issues i encountered with the altec 19, i.e the frustation of playing oversized speakers (for my room volume) at a very small fraction of their potential. i've been down that path and the La Scala happily cured these frustrating years. life is too short to let audio issues bothering the very simple pleasure of music. so i'll pass the satisfaction of "owning" KH this time and enjoy my LS. thanks everybody for support and advice.

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hi

the story continues with more food for thoughts, as the KH project is still nagging at me ;-)

 

what do you guys think of this KH placement, as featured in the great record's collectors'Dust&Grooves book?

it's the living/music room of Colleen "Cosmo" Murphy , DJ and promoter of Classic Album Sundays parties, friend of the late great David Mancuso from The Loft fame and die-hard fan of the KH.

https://dustandgrooves.com/colleen/

as this placement is pretty similar to my virtual room arrangment - there would be actually even more space between the speakers - i contacted Colleen thru the grapevine and she vouched for the KH, even in such a "limited" space.

another idea is to compensate room issues thru a behringer DQ analog/digital gizmo. EQ is usually regarded as sacrilege by audiopaths - but secretly favored to get the best of systems.

keep on hornin'

 

 

Dust_and_Grooves_6076.jpg

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1 hour ago, heavyP said:

i contacted Colleen thru the grapevine and she vouched for the KH, even in such a "limited" space.

another idea is to compensate room issues thru a behringer DQ analog/digital gizmo. EQ is usually regarded as sacrilege by audiopaths - but secretly favored to get the best of systems.

I agree--even though you might not get maximized performance out of them in a less-than-optimal-size room, that doesn't mean that Khorns  wouldn't sound superb and better than almost any other loudspeaker model that you could put in that room.

 

EQ is necessary for good sound in all rooms whether you implicitly acknowledge it through "synergistic component selection" (i.e., amplifiers and preamps that are in fact doing EQ on the signal), or explicitly providing an EQ capability that has real control latitude to correct for at least room acoustics below the so-called Schroeder frequency, or even correcting residual loudspeaker frequency response flatness issues (which the Khorn has to some degree above the Schroeder frequency of most rooms). 

 

The notion that loudspeaker drivers and horns should automatically produce naturally flat response at the listener's eardrums is a anthropomorphic view that "audiophiles" have injected into an otherwise real physical world.

 

I do recommend looking around for the lowest distortion/lowest noise EQ capability that you can afford (...after the price of the Khorns is absorbed ;)). This is usually part of the analog portions of the EQ unit, if any.  There are also upstream digital EQ applications and hardware that can correct at the digital source part of the signal chain in the digital domain thus avoiding an additional conversion to analog, and these usually sound the best.

 

Chris

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I wonder if the OP has considered adding some bass reflex bins to his Lascalas. I recently finished a pair, and even though I didn't add whatever filter is recommended by DJK, I can attest that the changes in my setup are exactly what I was striving for, namely, that extra octave of LF extension as well as raising the tweeter by 11" which is far more beneficial than I anticipated. It was an easy enough build and seeing as I used 3/4" MDF, cost me well under 100$. What I find formidable is that the speakers retain their original essence, or signature I suppose. Well worth considering IMO.

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thanks guys for feedback.

Ray, folded horn sub had been advised, bill fitzmaurice type. but from what he saw of my room, the french patented BF maker doesn't see any viable/ integrated solution...

 your bass reflex bins risers are an interesting option. they're just bins, right? no woofers added? a picture of the LS+bin set-up would be great.

 

thanks Chris for the EQ back-up ;-) i know that they're on audiophiles little dirty secrets' list.

"The notion that loudspeaker drivers and horns should automatically produce naturally flat response at the listener's eardrums is a anthropomorphic view that "audiophiles" have injected into an otherwise real physical world."

this is a good one. could stand as a signature. :lol:

i did read really good feedback on the Behringer DEQ2496 Ultra-Curve Pro. it's affordable and offer interesting results, especially thru digital playback, (i.e Full Digital Amplifier - an amplified PWM/DAC ) which is what i mainly use at home.

it has the very talent of offering a good analog/digital conversion, too - ideal to connect a phono preamp.

really, Colleen's set-up and the EQ option really makes me wondering about the KH again. and i have another very interesting contact about a pair.

more to follow...

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  • 5 months later...

hi ray and folks

been a long time. summer tends to drive me away from listening sessions but now that fall seems to finally hit, i guess it's time to focus on home listening again.

i didn't buy the k-Horns and chose to get the best out of the LS first. hence,  the ported bass reflex bin seems like a good thing to try. if you can come up with pics that would be great

or links to such buildings, as i couldn't find any specific links about it from the research option. thanks in advance

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