m00n Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Ok so I understand that LFE is low frequency effects. I understand that L/F is left/right. But what I don't fully understand is what the differences in the settings are in the receiver. When I choose only LFE, what happens? When I choose LFE with L/R what happens? How do these two options affect the crossover between the main fronts? Thanks all. ------------------ m00nsCinema to be m00ns current toys FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Harman Kardon DVD-50(DD, DTS) VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOX with Monster cable for that 5.1 Dolby Digitial surroundc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 I assume that is similar to the Denon setting of LFE+Main, which means that, when setting your mains to large, the bass that is supposed to be played by the mains is also going to be sent to the sub. therefore, you don't miss any low bass, but you also profit from the bass reproduction capabilities of your mains! ------------------ http://members.fortunecity.com/sebdavid - go laugh at my crappy website/equipment http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 mOOn, Let me give this a shot: LFE is a dedicated low-frequency channel which is the ".1" in a 5.1, 6.1, etc. HT signal. The person who mixes the 5.1 track places all the deepest bass into the .1 track, designated as "LFE", or "Low Frequency Effects" on your receiver (I don't know what, if any, standard there is for the exact crossover for the .1 track). Part of the bass management scheme of your receiver is that it allows you to choose whether to send to your subwoofer the LFE track by itself, or to also send the bass from your left and right channels ("LFE + L\R"). This would act to supplement the bass output of your mains. You are further allowed to specify the crossover point: the frequency (either 40 or 60 Hz) under which you want the receiver to send the left and right bass content to your sub. (Note that choosing LFE + L\R does not remove the deepest bass from your mains; it lets you supplement the bass they are already handling, if you think they need help. Also, this option is not available if your choose to set your mains to "small". When small is chosen, the receiver DOES remove the lower frequencies from your mains, and throws them all in the LFE channel, along with the bass content specifically mixed into LFE). As for my own preference: When I started to expand my 2.1 audio system into a 5.1, I assumed I would want to run it in LFE + L\R, to take advantage of my Fortes nice, flat bass response. In practice, this did not prove the best setting... my mains did not blend in well with my center channel. Only by setting all speakers to small did I begin to benefit from a realistic soundstage: panning from left to right, and vice versa, sounds much better in the "all small" mode. I am sure that if I were able to place a third Forte as my center, and if I were to run it through the same amplifier (I am currently using my HK for center, McCormack for L & R), I would be able to choose the LFE + L\R to much better effect. This, unfortunately, does not seem to be a viable option at this point, given the fact that I would have to A. hang the center Forte from the ceiling, or B. Heavily modify one, ala Klipsch member Horned's famous KLF30 center channel mod. For more info, a careful reading and re-reading of the HK 520 manual might be helpful... ------------------ Klipsch Fortes, Oiled Oak Klipsch KLF-C7 Center Channel Klipsch RS-3 surrounds McCormack DNA-1 Power Amp McCormack TLC Pre-Amp Harmon Kardon AVR520 Receiver Sony 5-disc changer Toshiba SD-5700 DVD player NHT SA3 Subwoofer Amp Hsu TN1220 Subwoofer Old Akai cassette Deck Nordost Solar Wind interconnects Nordost Moonglo Digital Coax Kimber 4TC Speaker Cable DH Labs Subwoofer Cable Blue Jeans Component Video Cable Mitsubishi WS-55809 RPTV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 all receivers i've seen, except some yammy that have an LFE contro, send all LFE channel material to the sub out/sub just as long as you have a sub & choose the sub:yes setting. LFE is speced to only go as far as 120hz so no threat in getting real high stuff to your sub. iow, the only thing that directs LFE is sub:yes or no. the small/large & crossover settings only affect low bass (not LFE) between the other channels & sub. as seb & chuck said, only takes away or adds this to the sub, independent of LFE. i found it best to set all speaks to small & dial down the crossover to 50hz. so whether you go large/small & 40 or 60hz depends on your set-up, room, tastes. w/ bigger speaks should be a nice feature to have - that adjustable crossover in the 520. 60hz should be about the highest you go w/ bigger speaks. out of curiousity, is that crossover setting universal for all speaks/channels, or independent to each? wouldn't go higher than 60hz, but doesn't it go higher too, like to 80hz? wonder what m00n has his bass mgmt settings (large/small, crossover) at? ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted September 22, 2002 Author Share Posted September 22, 2002 Boa I have everything set to large. LFE-L/F enabled, I think my crossover is set at 60 Hz. Tomorrow I get my RSW-15, considering I am adding the to my RSW-12, would you suggest I change any settings? My setup has the ability to specify a rear sub. My plan is to have them stacked on top of each other. Now by doing this, I DO or I DON'T want to specify a rear sub? I wouldn't think you would. And if I am correct, I want to keep both IN PHAZE right? ------------------ m00nsCinema to be m00ns current toys FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Harman Kardon DVD-50(DD, DTS) VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOX with Monster cable for that 5.1 Dolby Digitial surroundc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 chuck may know that better on the rear sub - never heard of that. is there a sub out rca jack for a rear sub? but no, whatever it is, don't want to use that for the rsw together in front. should be able to keep everything the same & just get more output. that is, on the rsws phase same, crossovers disabled. only output controls may be different. you might try setting all the speaks to small once you get it set up. bass may be cleaner that way. & since you have that adjustable crossover in the 520 set to 60hz, the rf-7 & other speaks don't get cut until 60hz on down. & the sub doesn't get cut til 60hz on up - but just on the low bass. the LFE is still full-tilt boogie, but like i said it just carries low fe up to about 120hz max. when you set the speaks like the rf-7 large, for the low bass, they don't get cut at all. sub gets cut at 60hz on up. so w/ the subs & rf-7 basically covering the same range of around 40-60hz from different room locations such as w/ 2-channel music, you may get some bass interference that muddies it up some. iow, try the small settings w/ some bassy 2-channel stuff & hk cross set at 60hz. you might just find a smoother blend & better quality bass. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 Boa, ya I agree I should set them to small. By the way, what does IOW stand for? ------------------ m00nsCinema to be m00ns current toys FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Harman Kardon DVD-50(DD, DTS) VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOX with Monster cable for that 5.1 Dolby Digitial surroundc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 iow= in other words btw= by the way ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Gentlemen, I am unsure of the rear sub setting mOOn mentioned... I don't think it is an option on the HK520. Be aware that you do not have the option to crossover at 60 Hz if you choose the small setting... only 80 and 100. And mOOn, as much as I thought I knew how the speaker set-up should be, it was only after watching a lot of material that I decided what would and would not work, and what my ears preferred. I had to overcome a moderate mental obstacle to actually remove from my blessed Fortes the sub-80 Hz material; but that was the only way I could even begin to get a realistic soundstage. I recommend that, whatever set-up you start with, that you listen to a lot of material, and feel free to ask questions in this forum if something does not seem right. Some benchmark material I have used to determine if my settings were what they should be include: Toy Story (both 1 and 2...lots of great panning and surround material), Unbreakable (some good, deep bass), and if it had been available at the time, I would most likely have used Lord of the Rings... one of the best-sounding DVDs I have heard. ------------------ Klipsch Fortes, Oiled Oak Klipsch KLF-C7 Center Channel Klipsch RS-3 surrounds McCormack DNA-1 Power Amp McCormack TLC Pre-Amp Harmon Kardon AVR520 Receiver Sony 5-disc changer Toshiba SD-5700 DVD player NHT SA3 Subwoofer Amp Hsu TN1220 Subwoofer Old Akai cassette Deck Nordost Solar Wind interconnects Nordost Moonglo Digital Coax Kimber 4TC Speaker Cable DH Labs Subwoofer Cable Blue Jeans Component Video Cable Mitsubishi WS-55809 RPTV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 Chuck, that setting is there, I seen it last night when I was getting the speaker setting that boa wanted to see. ------------------ m00nsCinema to be m00ns current toys FRONTS: RF-7 CENTER: RC-7 SURROUNDS: RS-7 SUB: RSW-12 RECEIVER: Harman Kardon AVR 520 DVD: Harman Kardon DVD-50(DD, DTS) VIDEO: InFocus ScreenPlay DLP Projector COMPUTER: ProMedia 4.1 c>Microsoft XBOX with Monster cable for that 5.1 Dolby Digitial surroundc> f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierceb Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 OK, I was going to start a new thread on a very similar topic, but I think I will ask advice here. I just got a new Servo-15 with an external X-30 crossover. Now, I'm a bit confused on how to best manage the bass. I have a Denon 3802 (with R*-7's)that you can cut at 80, 100, and 120 hz. With the X-30 I can cut the high level material at 50hz (lowest option) so that the RF-7's are utilized a bit more, however I'm not sure that all LFE is going to the sub. Basically the crossover accepts the left and right pre-outs from the 3802 only, and does not have an any inputs left for LFE (if you are cutting your mains at the crossover and sending them back to the reciever). So what I have to do is set my mains to large, with no sub (it can't go anywhere), and all my other speakers to small. Am I losing the LFE channel like this? It is great for two-channel music, but I don't think it sounds quite right with movies. If this makes any sense at all, could somebody please shed some light here! -PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 pb, not sure how your x-30 hooks up. but when you set sub:yes on the denon, as you do when using a sub w/ its sub preout, all LFE goes to the sub out only & beyond to crossover/sub. so LFE will be cut at whatever point you have external or sub low pass crossover set at. that's why I always recommend setting the external or sub crossover all the way up to 120hz or beyond, or disabling it if it has a switch - so no LFE is cut out. also why i'm always griping about the receiver makers & their thx-induced fixed 80hz or so crossovers, or in the case of the 3802 80hz being the lowest setting. what i call the bass manager's dilemma. maybe somebody that knows the X-30 knows of a way around using the sub-out of the denon & not cutting LFE by dialing it down the crossover to where you like it for the fronts - like at 50hz. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierceb Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Thanks Boa, Your answer is similar to what I was thinking. I guess my question is more or less this: If you set your receiver to 'sub no' does ALL the LFE and low frequency information go to the mains (with other speakers set to small)? If the other speakers are set to small does the lower frequency information from them get sent to the mains. If this is the case, then my crossover will be fine with my mains set to large. I might start another thread on this topic to get the attention of X30 owners. -PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 " Basically the crossover accepts the left and right pre-outs from the 3802 only, and does not have an any inputs left for LFE (if you are cutting your mains at the crossover and sending them back to the reciever)." maybe we can tackle this. you say the above, but are there any other connections running to the x-30, such as from the denon sub preout? the denon sub preout handles both low bass from speaks set small & from the fronts if you have the fronts+lfe setting, & all LFE as long as you have sub:yes. if all you're doing is running the denon front preouts to the X30 & then on to the velo L&R inputs, & have the setting sub:no, then the denon sends the LFE through the front preouts but you're cutting that at 50hz. maybe what you could do is use the setting in the denon for "LFE only" & set sub:yes. on the velo, switch its crossover off. then get an rca Y-adapter & also run an interconnect from the denon subout to the left input of the velo. may want to get 2 Y-adpaters if you want the sub out/LFE going to both line inputs of the velo. then you have all the low bass for the large fronts plus that low bass directed there from the other speaks set small, going thru the X30 & low passed to the velo at 50hz. the velo, w/ its crossover off, gets the full LFE signal from the other connection(s) from the denon sub out (lfe only). thanks. using an external crossover, we may have found a simple solution to the bass mgmt. dilemma. trying to find a downside to this, but none so far (besides having to buy another interconnect & Y-adapter or 2). passed at 50hz to the velo. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 pb, yes to both questions. but the above should take care of the LFE getting cut at 50hz problem. i'm going to post this in the HT section & see if its a good solution. may be many that would want to do it w/ their big front speaks. thanks! ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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