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New Tube amp to drive the Forte II


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On 6/16/2017 at 5:20 PM, tube fanatic said:

Trust me, you did not kick the nest at all, and I'm glad that you knew (as did I) that VPI was totally forthright about the amp.  A very quick look online would have revealed this to anyone who had doubts about their marketing integrity.  Companies like VPI have a great deal to lose if they try to dupe their patrons.  I can't imagine they would ever consider anything but total honesty, unlike some other purveyors of audio gear.

 

Enjoy the amp and don't let anyone "rain on your parade."  Your opinion of its value is the only one which matters.

 

 

Maynard

 

 

 Okay Maynard explain in detail how they have accomplished this statement? 

 

"Original created Harry Weisfeld long time family friend Steve Leung (VAS) collaborated together to bring back one of their favorites, the Scott 299D integrated amp"

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I'll do you one better, I'm Mat Weisfeld, owner of VPI, this was the last project that ran before I took over. I tried to kill it before it happened (I was too late) and moving forward I've done next to nothing to market it, you'll notice that it isn't even on our website.  I've also opening shared this information on our forum and others :) Forget the comparison to the Scott, look at it as more of a unicorn collectible product inspired by the Scott that you will never see from us again.  :lol:

 

The main reason is that I don't know amps, at least not like the experts in electronics and amps are.  Companies should have and keep their focus.  VPI making a tube amp doesn't stick with our focus of making turntables and components that work with turntables.  The reason is because of exactly what was mentioned about the amp, the components are made overseas and we certainly are not hiding it.  It is assembled here by VAS but you will notice the "Made in America" part of our logo was removed.  I can proudly say that was my only real contribution to this unit.  Essentially, it was too late for me to stop the project but I made sure the "Made in America" portion of the logo came off.  When I took over VPI we had 100 units.  I believe we still have about 10-15 units left.   To me I couldn't tell you the difference between the circuitry of the Scott or any other amp.  (Also I personally prefer solid state but that is another story). 

 

The origin was that we have a guy, we called him Black Market Richie since he always bring in old cool equipment, he came by the factory with a Scott.  (side note: that man has sold us one too many reel-to-reel players if anyone needs ;);)) Harry fired up the Scott with a Classic 4 in our original listening room (which is now my office :P) and Steve (from VAS) and him were blown away.  Harry and Steve got to talking and Steve from VAS went to work.  From there the 299D was born.

 

All of that aside and regardless of my protest, the unit does sound and look great for the money.  While the parts were sourced globally they are assembled here, properly tested, and if we did make this product here it would easily retail for 6K (or more).  I used one in my home for awhile and was blown away with the performance over other units I had that were triple the price.  Long term I hope Steve at VAS continues making this product under his own brand and I will gladly recommend it.  It is easy to use, diverse, reasonably priced, and sounds fantastic.   Regardless of the internal workings, the Scott 299D inspired the creation of this unit.  I hope this clears up some of the confusion :D

 

-MW

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29 minutes ago, VPI said:

I'll do you one better, I'm Mat Weisfeld, owner of VPI, this was the last project that ran before I took over. I tried to kill it before it happened (I was too late) and moving forward I've done next to nothing to market it, you'll notice that it isn't even on our website.  I've also opening shared this information on our forum and others :) Forget the comparison to the Scott, look at it as more of a unicorn collectible product inspired by the Scott that you will never see from us again.  :lol:

 

The main reason is that I don't know amps, at least not like the experts in electronics and amps are.  Companies should have and keep their focus.  VPI making a tube amp doesn't stick with our focus of making turntables and components that work with turntables.  The reason is because of exactly what was mentioned about the amp, the components are made overseas and we certainly are not hiding it.  It is assembled here by VAS but you will notice the "Made in America" part of our logo was removed.  I can proudly say that was my only real contribution to this unit.  Essentially, it was too late for me to stop the project but I made sure the "Made in America" portion of the logo came off.  When I took over VPI we had 100 units.  I believe we still have about 10-15 units left.   To me I couldn't tell you the difference between the circuitry of the Scott or any other amp.  (Also I personally prefer solid state but that is another story). 

 

The origin was that we have a guy, we called him Black Market Richie since he always bring in old cool equipment, he came by the factory with a Scott.  (side note: that man has sold us one too many reel-to-reel players if anyone needs ;);)) Harry fired up the Scott with a Classic 4 in our original listening room (which is now my office :P) and Steve (from VAS) and him were blown away.  Harry and Steve got to talking and Steve from VAS went to work.  From there the 299D was born.

 

All of that aside and regardless of my protest, the unit does sound and look great for the money.  While the parts were sourced globally they are assembled here, properly tested, and if we did make this product here it would easily retail for 6K (or more).  I used one in my home for awhile and was blown away with the performance over other units I had that were triple the price.  Long term I hope Steve at VAS continues making this product under his own brand and I will gladly recommend it.  It is easy to use, diverse, reasonably priced, and sounds fantastic.   Regardless of the internal workings, the Scott 299D inspired the creation of this unit.  I hope this clears up some of the confusion :D

 

-MW

 

Thank you for the background and the insight into the product.

 

IMHO being assembled in America is much better than assembly in China. If anyone can point me to an amplifier where every piece inside it is made in America I will buy them a cigar. We live in a global market and if Germany is making a better capacitor for a specific application I will purchase it, to not because it's made overseas is doing yourself a disservice. 

 

This reminds me of the Carver challenge. Although the two amps may not have the same innards they may indeed have a similar sonic characteristic. You don't need to use the same topology to get the same in and out characteristics.

 

 

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Mat,

  I commend you for coming here and attempting to clear the air..sorry to say your very long reply still does nothing to justify the claim in my above post. "Original created Harry Weisfeld long time family friend Steve Leung (VAS) collaborated together to bring back one of their favorites, the Scott 299D integrated amp"

  I realize you acknowledge you no nothing about amplifiers... Well I believe I know a little bit about amplifiers and especially about vintage Scott amplifiers...I have no problem with you or VPI stating there new amplifier was "inspired" by listening to the original Scott 299D....but that is not what the above advertising pitch states...it stated VPI brought back the Scott 299D...

  The fact of the matter is your VPI amplifier is most likely a much better amplifier...but by the same token it has almost nothing in common with the original 299D your advertisement states you have brought back.....

 

The quick and easily descernable but very important differences

 

Scott 299D ran the output tubes in pentode mode only

 

The VPI amplifier runs them in Ultra linear or triode....VERY DIFFERENT

 

Scott 299D utilized a compact 7591 output tube. 

 

VPI utilized EL34/KT88 again VERY DIFFERENT

 

Scott 299D front end small signal tubes

4- 12AX7 and 2- 6U8

 

VPI front end is just 4 12AU7 tubes which to me means it most likely does not have a tube based phono section...along with the inherent difference of 12AU7 compared to 12AX7. The driver phase inverter has to be very different then the 6U8 Scott utilized...

 

I'm sorry but the advertising story just doesn't mesh with the facts...

 

 But beyond that it does look like a fine product...

 

Cheers Craig. 

 

 

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On 6/15/2017 at 7:26 AM, NOSValves said:

 

Besides this forum is a form of relaxation and has nothing to do with business promotion those days are and have been long gone....the only ones getting away with that these days are the weak at heart hypocrites that use the forum to promote there hobby businesses that they don't have the balls to make a real business. 

 

No one promotes anything anymore - there's no need. Everyone here knows who does what.  

 

It has nothing to do with being "weak at heart" (cowardly), it's simple economics - I would have to sell and build 350 sets of networks a year to equal my current salary. 

 

Sometimes you can be a real jackass. :P

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Uh, but it does mislead. You don't call a thing that thing - unless it's that thing. As Craig pointed out, the two amplifiers in question are completely different. The VPI amplifier is obviously not a Scott 299D. 

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It is misleading, It would be great if Mat could ask the engineers some basic questions to why?  I figured it's just a tip of the hat and to actually clone the 299d wouldn't be the best idea; I am no engineer but here is me best guess.

 

 

 

First there are much more EL34 manufactureres out there to choose from and they are less expensive than the 7591's. The EL34 is a 25 watt tube where the 7591 is only a 19 watt tube. The two have similar transconductance but the 7591 has double the internal impedance. Running the pentode as a pentode will also have a lot more distortion along with the higher output impedance, this will require more negative feedback to lower distortion and output impedance. The original Scott used a small signal pentode for a gain stage before the triode split load phase inverter to get a higher open loop gain without adding another stage, more stages increases phase shift which leads to stability issues with large amounts of feedback. The 6U8 triode has high gain (40) further increasing open loop gain. Now running the output stage with local feedack as with distributed loading (ultra linear) you increae linearity lowering distortion and impedance, this in turn will require much less open loop gain for you won't be needing as much global feedback to clean things up. This is most likely why they didn't need a small signal pentode for high gain and a high gain triode, the 12AU7 will do. Personally regardless of what output device was used as I am okay with going with the EL34 because they are much more available, I would have stuck with Pentode mode as to retain the same sonic characteristic. Maybe they didn't want to fuss over getting the feedback loop stable? It can be a daunting task to get the feedback lead/lag compensation networks correct when using gobs of global feedback. At 1% THD it would appear they aren't using a lot of feedback if any at all so maybe they are only using one 12AU7 per channel for the power amp? I mean from reference my PP Class AB EL34 amp (ultra linear) from the fifties has .05% THD at full output and ~1% THD when run open loop. Maybe they aren't running any globabl feedback. Even still with one 12AU7 per channel it would be tough to drive the EL34's. One triode would have to be a split inverter, that would mean you would need to squeeze every ounce of gain from the other triode for full output, a CCS load would do that. This leaves one 12AU7 per channel for the phono stage, even if they did this would one 12AU7 be sufficient for a MM stage? It would take some tightrope walking but maybe. It's fun to speculate but even better if I could get my hands in one of them.

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Maybe the sound reminded them of the 299?  Perhaps it sounds similar even though the parts and topology are different.   It would be interesting to hear the two to compare. I can imagine the marketing and design folk's eyes glazing over and dreaming of champagne face plates all while the engineers talk to them.  

Just a question... I have no knowledge of this.

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As far as I could see... I didn't see anything that said Scott on that amp. Saying the amp is based on Scott design is not branding, that is false advertising.

 

Branding and licensing is completely different.

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Well since we've beat this horse until its dead can we please bury it too? What if the chaps at VPI had named it the VPI Mustang? Still misleading? Except an automobile to be delivered? Looks more amp than car to me but due to its misleading name I assumed an automobile in my drive not a hifi amp on my bench. Thank Gawd they didn't opt for the VPI VRD! 

And all this because someone posted a pic of his beautiful new amp -? 

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Whoooa, boy... I love this place.

Conversations like this one are what life is all about! No one advances in a vacuum (I'm laughing at myself now, the pun was unintended).

 

BTW--beautiful amp. Anyone bringing that level of finish and finesse to a product is probably producing a labor of love. MW's story about the inspiration behind the amp: very cool.

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On 6/23/2017 at 4:38 PM, Schu said:

As far as I could see... I didn't see anything that said Scott on that amp. Saying the amp is based on Scott design is not branding, that is false advertising.

 

Branding and licensing is completely different.

No one is going to buy that amp without looking into it a bit more.  It will be obvious that it is a different amp. Lay people like me read up on their first purchase of a tube amp.  Once you read about the electrical shock possibility, you do more reading and research, lol.  Let's just say it is what it is and let all men feed off the land.

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