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Class D Crown vs. Hypex nCore


richieb

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I have Ncore monoblocs on my mains and I'm done with everything else. 400 W into 4 ohms and 600 W into 2 ohms. I think I have plenty of headroom, but with class A definition on the first watt. Also, it's the easiest kit I ever built. did 2 in one hour flat.

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^^^^^

And as Claude mentioned nCore lets be sure to differentiate Hypex UcD, Hypex nCore and the B&O ICE modules. Hypex nCore are the most recent Class D development from Hypex and supersede all others and have finally pushed Class D into hi-end hifi.

I strongly doubt the Klipsch amps are using nCore or developing their own input circuits but using turnkey modules from either Hypex or B&O. 

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1 hour ago, richieb said:

^^^^^

And as Claude mentioned nCore lets be sure to differentiate Hypex UcD, Hypex nCore and the B&O ICE modules. Hypex nCore are the most recent Class D development from Hypex and supersede all others and have finally pushed Class D into hi-end hifi.

I strongly doubt the Klipsch amps are using nCore or developing their own input circuits but using turnkey modules from either Hypex or B&O. 

I should add that I have owned, over 50 years, every kind of amp imaginable. Starting with various mono amps, with no names to remember, Southwest Tech Products Kits (high power in the early 70's and THE WORST sound ever) then on to Scott Integreated, McIntosh 240, Marantz 8b, Harman Kardon Citation, all with film capacitor refresh in the hand wiring, then on to Dynaco Mk III monoblocs, McIntosh C-26 pre amps, then Dynaco SS kits, 150, 400, then Haflers with MOSFETS, VSP Labs, Adcoms, T-amps, Yamaha, JBL/Urei, Crown, etc, then Onkyo receivers to do multichannel/HT with Audyssey XT, XT-32, etc. Now YAMAHA PrePro with First Watt Aleph J and FINALLY Dual Hypex "hockey pucks," LOL.

 

After a couple of months of listening to all my test music, my enthusiasm for this technology has not diminished at all. They idle at 5W each so I never turn them off. Switching Power supply and Switching amplifiers in super lightweight boxes. I can't even imagine anything better. My main speakers are 4 ohms, 100 db/W efficiency, so having 400 Watts for the dynamic peaks gives me over 30 db of headroom (13 db more than recommended by PWK), and still way BELOW the thermal/power compression of my speakers, which occurs at about 550 watts or so. It is impossible to drive the system into clipping while playing the Chesky Drum Test Recording at "the drums are here in the living room" volume level!!

 

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Claude I assume you use a preamp that allows you to leave them on 24/7? These are one of the fews amps I've owned that have enough gain to actually use of a buffered passive (First Watt) that really provides some drive. This makes it easy to leave the amps/passive always on. And Class D sounds better when always burning rather than the on/off cycle of typical amps. But after a couple weeks I'm ready to try them with a tube preamp which will require turning the amps off along with the pre. 

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In college we set out to make our own Class D amplifier. We researched all the options on the market at that time and UcD was definitely the best. Those cheap T amps were close to the worst and limited by the power supply quality. We sat down to understand the limitations of the UcD architecture and came up with a design of our own (sitting on the shoulders of giants). A few years later the nCore series was announced, and it implemented all of the same things (and more) that we had identified in college. That's not to say we were doing anything incredible in college, but to say that the improvements of the nCore are quite dramatic and rather straightforward. I've never met Bruno, but based on his writings we see eye to eye on just about everything. I have the utmost respect for his engineering acuity, and yet he still respects the audiophile phenomenon and cranks out crazy stuff.

 

All that to say, the nCore amplifiers are without a doubt the best amps on the market. They're so good that you have to build special measurement equipment to even quantify the improvement. That's just crazy. Or rather, that's just testament to Bruno's quest for perfection.

 

I too am quite interested by the nCore powered products that Klipsch is coming out with. Are they available yet? Anyone heard one yet?

 

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Oh, I almost forgot. Crown is getting left in the dust these days. Those DriveCore amplifiers are simply not audiophile quality. I don't like them for prosound applications either. You'd be better off going with Behringer or Peavey (two of the lowest end pro audio brands).

 

In a blind ABX you should be able to tell the difference between the Crown and the nCore. You should even be able to pick them out from an adjacent room.

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1 hour ago, richieb said:

Claude I assume you use a preamp that allows you to leave them on 24/7? These are one of the fews amps I've owned that have enough gain to actually use of a buffered passive (First Watt) that really provides some drive. This makes it easy to leave the amps/passive always on. And Class D sounds better when always burning rather than the on/off cycle of typical amps. But after a couple weeks I'm ready to try them with a tube preamp which will require turning the amps off along with the pre. 

I don't understand what you mean by "allow." I just turn off the Yamaha with the remote. Since the Ncores are so efficient, they are barely warm, even in the summer, so it's easier than wearing out the two on/off switches in the rear, just to keep them on.

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Recently, I worked for a company doing board layout for GTO circuits that control electric trains and buses. It had 6 parallel output devices and NO HEATSINKS were required for the Surface mount packages, just the 2 oz. copper on the board. These were good for 500 Amps output (pulsed)a.

 

So many MOSFET transistors today, used in Class D circuits, have a ridiculously LOW RdsON specification of something like 0.03-0.1 ohms. So even with 25 amps of current going through a solid state switch like a MOSFET will only dissipate 2.5 Watts, typically. A 25 AMP output, like on the Hypex monoblocs only requires 2 small transistors bolted to the aluminum "puck" and screwed into the chassis WITHOUT any thermal transfer grease.  Class D amplifier circuits are similar to Buck circuits for driving LED's.  Its Pulse Width Modulation with a 2nd order filter at the output with all necessary feedback applied.

 

We all love the DYNAMICS of live music, so we horn lovers like the efficiency we get to recreate those dynamics in our living rooms. So why not go for EFFICIENT amps as well as speakers. Only makes sense.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I don't understand what you mean by "allow." I just turn off the Yamaha with the remote. Since the Ncores are so efficient, they are barely warm, even in the summer, so it's easier than wearing out the two on/off switches in the rear, just to keep them on.

 

I have always practiced the sequence - preamp-amps/On; amps-preamp/Off. I want to leave the Cores on all the time but of course cannot let a tube pre burn 24/7 so I am extremely leery of turning a preamp off while the Cores are still on. I am afraid of a turn off pop or transient signal that might wipe out a driver or crossover component.

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3 hours ago, richieb said:

 

I have always practiced the sequence - preamp-amps/On; amps-preamp/Off. I want to leave the Cores on all the time but of course cannot let a tube pre burn 24/7 so I am extremely leery of turning a preamp off while the Cores are still on. I am afraid of a turn off pop or transient signal that might wipe out a driver or crossover component.

Not an issue with the Yamaha, but I see what you mean. Different front end means different procedure.

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Unfortunately, I just missed Claude's HypexNcores when I visited him several weeks ago to audition his amazing MEH system.  I guess I'll have to invest in another 6-pack and go back.

 

I use Shure TPA3110 class D boards in powered Bluetooth DIY boomboxes with excellent results.  The Wiener TPA3118 board shown on that SOTA chunk of pine sounds wonderful driving Heresy or La Scala.  After I put the Wiener in a case, it will be the amp used to power my mains for 2-channel listening.  My tube rolling days are in the rear view mirror.

 

My sponsor is upset when I allow Claude to tempt me with MEHs and HypexNcore.  I've missed too many meetings.

 

Hey @ClaudeJ1 do you know the street number of High-Fidelity Workshop from when it was on Woodward?  When I drive on Woodward I can't be certain where it was.  What Mile roads was it between?  I recall it being on the east side of Woodward.  What's in that space now?

 

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16 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

So many MOSFET transistors today, used in Class D circuits, have a ridiculously LOW RdsON specification of something like 0.03-0.1 ohms. So even with 25 amps of current going through a solid state switch like a MOSFET will only dissipate 2.5 Watts, typically.

The Rdson specs aren't the limiting factor when it comes to MOSFETs....switching losses typically dominate the heat generation.

 

I just wanted to mention that Class D designs that maximize efficiency 'usually' aren't maximizing the distortion capability of the system. It's a nice benefit that we don't need massive heatsinks, but the real benefit of Class D is that it has incredibly good performance at low signal levels. I think talking about the heat generation distracts from the true benefit of Class D, which sonically speaking, when implemented well, is going to be superior to Class A. I know some engineering friends that would cringe at that, but I think the numbers are defensible. The characteristics of a delta-sigma encoding are far better than a voltage encoding, but you have to be willing to accept a paradigm shift. We can encode signals in voltage, current, and time. Classical audio uses the voltage encoding because it's easy to wrap your head around, but is it the best medium? Why not encode in the current or time domains? Or why not encode across multiple domains? Delta-sigma encodes in the time/voltage domain, which is the easiest encoding to minimize errors in - especially for bandwidth limited signals. Class A is voltage domain only, and all of its distortions are related to the time domain, which require making tradeoffs. You can keep making delta-sigma better until you run out of electrons, and the parasitic effects of real parts can be designed in such a way that they just cancel themselves out entirely....

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The proof is in the sound... and what sound you are looking for. I don't need to understand the technology if it sounds good.

 

My class D's sound good... they sound very good as a matter of fact. However, despite the much better measured characteristics of these monoblocks, they can not hold a light to my monoblock tube amps... IN MY SYSTEM.

 

I have run them in many configurations, including using a passive preamp, a class D preamp, and a tube preamp... they all sound very different. The most pleasing combination was a tube based pre with the class D, however they still exhibited a very unnerving characteristic, the tendency to magnify any imperfections or bias in the recording. It was so bad in some instances that I would actually stop listening to whole albums because they sounded so shrill and beamed like a son of a gun... I get almost non of that with my tube amps. Sound with my la scala and the class D amps was so annoyingly bad, I almost sold my speakers because listening seasons were actually painful to go thru... with tube monoblocks, I am in heaven and in a place where, in my mind and to my ears, I knew that I wanted to be when I began this journey for wondrous sound.

 

I probably won't sell my class d's because they work perfectly for home theater where instant high power is rewarding and satisfying.

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55 minutes ago, wdecho said:

I am more knowledgeable than most on this forum when it comes to electronics,

 

I'm sure that's true of you, as I believe it's also true of yours truly.  Not to disparage your level of expertise, but the electronics bar is fairly low on the forum.  Mike, aka @DrWho, has more electronics knowledge in his young little finger than I do in my whole geriatric body.  His posts are interesting, but, generally, fly right over my head.

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2 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

You're welcome.  I try to do my part.

 

Carl,  I've edited the post to limit the low bar to electronics. 

 

2 minutes ago, wdecho said:

There are many on this forum that are far more knowledgable than myself. My knowledge is limited to the repair field in my profession and some limited electronic courses many years ago. I stated that I consider myself only a solder slinger. You took a passage of my posting out of context. Most members of this forum are just here because of this being a speaker forum with no electronic background. That is all I meant by saying I am more knowledgeable than most on this forum when it comes to electronics. Members should read the entire post and see that in no way was I bragging. 

 

 

I didn't take your comment as bragging.  IMO, a few here have amazing electronics knowledge that outstrips my meager knowledge, but most on the forum have all they can do to decipher series vs. parallel when connecting multiple speakers.  That is not meant as a put down, just a statement of what I believe to be correct.  Each has his/her areas of expertise.  The wealth and diversity of knowledge is what makes this forum great.

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8 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

No need to edit for me.  I was just having fun.

 

 I know, but the "electronics" qualifier is appropriate.  The knowledge bars are very high on this forum, so it's important to know which standard is in play.

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4 hours ago, DizRotus said:

Hey @ClaudeJ1 do you know the street number of High-Fidelity Workshop from when it was on Woodward?  When I drive on Woodward I can't be certain where it was.  What Mile roads was it between?  I recall it being on the east side of Woodward.  What's in that space now?

 

@DizRotus I have the receipts for my La Scalas that I bought there if you want the address, I'll dig'em out , hopefully they're not too faded. And yes they were on the east side of Woodward. I think between 12 mile and Catalpa.

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