ClaudeJ1 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, richieb said: Older Cantos were ICE and I think new models are nCore ? But in all cases it will be Canto that shapes the final sound. I'm pretty sure the Bel Canto uses a Proprietary Discrete Cascode front end Buffer with a Hypex NC500 "power" back end, hence its 700 Watts into 4 ohms rating. Hypex Ncore represents the very best in performance for Class D technology, which is why all the "high end" guys are adopting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: I'm pretty sure the Bel Canto uses a Proprietary Discrete Cascode front end Buffer with a Hypex NC500 "power" back end, hence its 700 Watts into 4 ohms rating. Hypex Ncore represents the very best in performance for Class D technology, which is why all the "high end" guys are adopting it. Bel Canto's proprietary, balanced, discrete current-to-voltage stage, followed by a thermally stable, high-current, class-A output that uses naked Z-foil resistors for voltage conversion and, for the analog filter, precision film capacitors. This stage drives a discrete voltage gain stage that outputs a fully balanced, 18V, high-current drive to a custom version of the Hypex class-D analog nCore module designed by Bruno Putzeys that's said to be capable of producing peaks of 40 amps into 2 ohms using only four high-current output MOSFETs that can deliver up to 1200W. Hypex supplies Bel Canto with customized modules designed specifically for the Black.Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/bel-canto-design-black-amplification-system#y0MqEwZ5hDWU8PfB.99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Submitted by JRT on June 30, 2015 - 12:25pm Bruno Putzeys' NCore variant of switch mode (class D) amplifiers, in combination with switch mode power supply, represents significant progress. If well implemented, Putzey's NCore can be fully adequate for high quality audio, but that is not why it represents significant progress, because a well designed conventional class AB amplifier with conventional power supply can also produce high quality audio at similar power output. What represents significant progress is that Bruno Putzeys' NCore variant of switch mode amplifiers, in combination with switch mode power supply, can also produce high quality audio at substantially reduced cost, reduced size, and with reduced power consumption, as compared to a conventional class AB amplifier capable of similarly high quality audio at similar power output. I would suggest comparison of this Bel Canto MPS1 amplifier to a Parasound Halo JC1. Here is a link to Stereophile's review of the JC1: http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/774/index.html The Parasound Halo JC1 sells for less than $5K. ($6,000 a pair). Bel Canto chose a $15K MSRP price point for this MPS1, and by doing that they have failed to deliver the real progress that Putzeys' NCore could and should provide. Bel Canto's small dealer network in the US will sell a few of these, probably very few, and I suspect this Bel Canto product will soon fade into oblivion. I hope Putzeys' NCore does not fade as quickly. Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/bel-canto-design-black-amplification-system#y0MqEwZ5hDWU8PfB.99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 So basically, my guy on Ebay will build a dual Ncore500 Power amp in one chassis, with Sparkos Discrete Op Amp front end, for $1,400. OR, you can get 2 Bel Cantos versions for $30,000. This is a real tough decision for me...........................................NOT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Has anyone heard the UcD Hypex amplifiers...the ones with lower power output capability (30w/channel, etc.). Any audible differences with the two high output nCore models? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Youz guys r blowing my mind Any of these manufacturers publish square wave response at say 300w out? Just curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 nCore versus UcD is like Jubilee vs Khorn....don't waste your time with the UcD amplifiers. The "first watt" performance of the nCore is still better than UcD, even though it has more output capability. You'll hear the difference at the top end of the frequency range. UcD output impedance is problematic for frequency response, but even when that's compensated there's a fuzziness to the high-hat and snare that goes away with the nCore. I've never played around with the ICE amplifiers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, DrWho said: nCore versus UcD is like Jubilee vs Khorn.... Ok. So when I read this I assumed you meant......"splitting hairs". Then I thought of "apples to oranges". However, I concluded you meant substantial difference and don't waste your time with a Khorn. Doc you know how to make a stand. So I'm glad I started this conversation as open-ended like I know nothing. Sometimes I get the best responses to further my knowledge. As it goes so far: Ncore>UcD>Icepower or Ncore>Icepower>UcD or Ncore>Icepower?UcD So all this buffer, opamp, filter caps, power supplies is like Roy's quote......"salt and pepper to taste". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, DrWho said: nCore versus UcD is like Jubilee vs Khorn....don't waste your time with the UcD amplifiers. The "first watt" performance of the nCore is still better than UcD, even though it has more output capability. You'll hear the difference at the top end of the frequency range. UcD output impedance is problematic for frequency response, but even when that's compensated there's a fuzziness to the high-hat and snare that goes away with the nCore. I've never played around with the ICE amplifiers. That's actually the first thing I noticed about my Ncore400's. They had the same sound as my Pass First Watt Aleph J Class A single ended, which was the best ever up until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 16 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: That's actually the first thing I noticed about my Ncore400's. They had the same sound as my Pass First Watt Aleph J Class A single ended, which was the best ever up until then. Here is where my ears go another direction. Taking absolute power out of the equation my FW F3 which is very similar to the FW J series is more resolute, defined, maybe more transpearent up top. After several weeks of listening i just swapped out the mAmps for the F3. The Nelson Pass First Watts are fantastic sounding amps, no doubt. Along with wanting to hear a FW SIT amp I would like a shot at the Benchmark amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Back to Bel Canto who as a company has produced amps using nearly available technology other than standard Class AB. Tubes, yes single ended; Tripath chip amps, ICE and now nCore. I've read that the earlier Canto Tripath amps were great sounding amps with a good following. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 1 minute ago, wdecho said: Class A is class A. With certain types of music I like my 2 favorite D amps, mainly hard driving rock but for serious listening I reach for one of my Class A either SET tube or class A SS. There is no doubt that D has the best bass, bar none, that I have heard with my speakers. I went to a Led Zeppelin recreate concert (Black Jacket Symphony) this month that was loud and hard hitting and the next day when I wanted to relive the concert I reached for my TPA3255 class D amplifier and my Led Zeppelin album. Hard to argue and I have always preferred Class A amps. And yes bass from the mAmps is amazing, even at very low levels. But it ain't far off with the paltry 15 watts of the F3. I think the D amps are less transparent the traditional Class A. Although Pass's FW products of Class A single ended design is hardly traditional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 hours ago, richieb said: I would like a shot at the Benchmark amp. Now, now. Don't start confusing the issue even further! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 16 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: Now, now. Don't start confusing the issue even further! Oops - my mind runs wilder than my wallet, too --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 Claude, Still waiting to hear your impressions of your new stereo nCore........and comparison to the mono kits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 4 hours ago, mark1101 said: Claude, Still waiting to hear your impressions of your new stereo nCore........and comparison to the mono kits. Still waiting for delivery (next week) AND I'm in the middle of moving so it may be in April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catman0122 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Just curious, what do you guys think of these other D class techs discussed here? http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148188.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 11 hours ago, catman0122 said: Just curious, what do you guys think of these other D class techs discussed here? http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148188.0 If you don't need the extreme overkill power, from the 1500 Watt Monoblock, that all Klipsch speaker Do NOT demand, then the original mono kits from Hypex are the way to go. However, based on what I read at the 6 Moons interview, this guy does a great job of optimising what is available at a non-audiophile (meaning good value, reasonable profit, and no ripoff). Unless you do a controlled ABX Box listening test, I doubt you could ever tell the difference between all of the best Class D modules. ICE, Hypes, TI, etc. Since I own the Hypex Mono kits, and have yet to receive a stereo version of the Hypex I bought on Ebay at a bargain price, along with still no build of power supply for the TI '55 modules I also got cheap, I can't comment on any of the sound differences, since I have not heard them. I will say that Audio Research made both stereo and monoblock versions (now discontinued) of a Class D amp that my best audio buddy (for over 40 years) owns. I have heard my Hypex compared to those ($10,000 retail vs. $1,600 kits) at his place, and I can't tell the difference. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 On 23.3.2018 at 1:55 PM, ClaudeJ1 said: Unless you do a controlled ABX Box listening test, I doubt you could ever tell the difference between all of the best Class D modules. ICE, Hypes, TI, etc. Obviously my listening experience is totally unscientific and thus totally subjective and YMMV - BUT to my ears the sound difference between my ICE and TI amp is not that subtle. The ICE amp seems to be more mid-centred whereas the TPA3255 stikes me as more neutral - and more open. Could I live with either of them? Sure - but to these ears they certainly sound different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 19 hours ago, dubai2000 said: Obviously my listening experience is totally unscientific and thus totally subjective and YMMV - BUT to my ears the sound difference between my ICE and TI amp is not that subtle. The ICE amp seems to be more mid-centred whereas the TPA3255 stikes me as more neutral - and more open. Could I live with either of them? Sure - but to these ears they certainly sound different. Well then, pick our favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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