Is a center absolutely a must for HT ?

[tnycman]

Happy Sunday everyone,
 
I'm building a small HT in the attic, and don't have much room for the center, or it will be way to low, wondering if the center speaker is an absolutely deal breaker for a HT ?
 
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[willland]

You can just utilize a phantom center with the imaging of the front speakers.  With that said, only ideal for center seating position.  Narrow room with no extreme right/left seating will be doable also. 

 

Post a photo of your attic.

 

Bill

[RoboKlipsch]

Well said.   Unless you are the only one ever using it i would change to a center.  Its very annoying to notice the left and right speakers playing what should come from the center.  Even as one person i greatly prefer a center.  

[RoboKlipsch]

Centers can go above too.  If we can help w choice of center or placement just ask.  

[tnycman]

No, it will not be only me, the kids can't wait for it, its been a never ending project unfortunately..

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[tnycman]

Centers can go above too.  If we can help w choice of center or placement just ask.  

I did ask this question and got some valuable feedback..

In a nutshell, i have about 12-15 inch clearance at the bottom of the screen, i don't havean AT screen, so it seems my options are pretty limited.. btw the speakers are inwall klipsch 7800 thx.

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[robert_kc]

Unless you have a huge room and the main speakers must be positioned very far apart, and you feel that it is necessary to fill-in the center with sound, why not just use the "stereo downmix" vs. "5.1 downmix"?  All of the music (and movie content) will be presented via the 2 main speakers if you select "stereo downmix".   (Results may not be as good if you select "5.1 downmix" and don't connect the center channel.  I suggest that you experiment, and decide what sounds best.)  

 

You can still use a subwoofer (or multiple subwoofers), via a 2.1 configuration. 

 

That leaves open the question as to whether there is any worthwhile rear channel content.  I recently listened to rear channel content of the recordings that I often listen to, and decided that the small amount of rear channel audio has little value to me. 

 

My Oppo players (UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95) support 2.1, and I'm very satisfied with this arrangement for both music (classical and opera) and movies.

[dtel]

3 hours ago, willland said:

Narrow room with no extreme right/left seating will be doable also. 

Exactly, if the room is skinny enough it would be fine, just angle the speakers in a little to somewhat point to the center.

 

The idea is like listening in 2 Ch, the imaging is directed to the center of the seating, but the sides will also sound ok, just not perfect.

 

I would think this is the best way to setup the mains for HT anyway, just maby a little less if a center is used ?

[tnycman]

Unless you have a huge room and the main speakers must be positioned very far apart, and you feel that it is necessary to fill-in the center with sound, why not just use the "stereo downmix" vs. "5.1 downmix"?  All of the music (and movie content) will be presented via the 2 main speakers if you select "stereo downmix".   (Results may not be as good if you select "5.1 downmix" and don't connect the center channel.  I suggest that you experiment, and decide what sounds best.)  







 







You can still use a subwoofer (or multiple subwoofers), via a 2.1 configuration. 







 







That leaves open the question as to whether there is any worthwhile rear channel content.  I recently listened to rear channel content of the recordings that I often listen to, and decided that the small amount of rear channel audio has little value to me. 







 







My Oppo players (UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95) support 2.1, and I'm very satisfied with this arrangement for both music (classical and opera) and movies.

The idea of this HT room is 80-90% or more movies, music rarely if at all, thats why i have my RF7ii in my living room.
I was hoping to have a 5.2, or 7.2 setup, with wiring setuo for atmos 7.4.4, for the future upgrades..

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[Paducah Home Theater]

I think it depends on your angles.  You can get away with it on narrow angles if needed but if your mains are at wide angles then no.  I don't agree with it on most rooms.  Basically consider the following situations:

 

1. center channel only playing.  

 

2. L+R only playing

 

3. LCR all three playing

 

4. center playing dialogue or something but L+R playing something different.  

 

 

all of these will sound exactly the same with a phantom center.  

[1HOHDude]

If you are using a projector and screen just put the center behind.   If a TV with some of them you can play both the TV and the AVR in which case the TV speakers make like a poor man's center.   In any event a large percent of the audio comes from the center and the understandability of the audio improves with a center.     I think it is worth working for.    I put a theater in the attic of my home, see attached.   For movies a center is much better than 2 channel stereo.

[1HOHDude]

Center speaker pic.     My width is 16'.  I say don't let anyone talk you out of the center speaker.

[Alpha220]

I'm currently running 5.1 sound.  If I were to reduce from six speakers to only one, this is the order that I'd do it.  From least important to most important.

 

-rear speakers

-subwoofer

-main speakers

-center channel

 

(I might be over-emphasizing the importance slightly, but...)  If you actually want to hear what's being said in a movie, I'd suggest a center channel speaker.

[Frzninvt]

The center speaker in an HT is the most important speaker of all!  It is the speaker that all the others are anchored to and where the majority of the dialogue is produced from.  Why in the world would you not use one.  I supposed I would take no center over a timbre' mismatched one.

 

[Alpha220]

4 hours ago, Frzninvt said:

The center speaker in an HT is the most important speaker of all!

Just following up on how true this is.  I was hesitant to add one to my HDTV/movie watching setup, but once I did, the experience changed dramatically.  The only thing close to this type of improvement is adding a subwoofer.  Wow.  It's another huge leap of enjoyment and cool factor, but not as important as the center channel speaker.  Realistically, home theatre setups should not be operated without center channel speakers or subs.  You're just cheating yourself.

 

My modest, but great sounding/viewing home theatre setup:

Snell Type J IV main speakers

Snell Type CC1 center channel speaker

Snell Type M rear speakers

Polk PSW111 subwoofer

Vizio M70-C3 HDTV 70" display

Onkyo TX-NR535 5.2-channel network A/V receiver

 

[derrickdj1]

I have been without a center channel in the family room using only my L/R speaker producing a darn good phantom image.  I could have brought one but, in that system, it not really paramount.

[tnycman]

I'm going to place a center, now the question is how will i manage with the little clearance i have..

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[Scrappydue]

On 6/11/2017 at 0:02 PM, robert_kc said:

Unless you have a huge room and the main speakers must be positioned very far apart, and you feel that it is necessary to fill-in the center with sound, why not just use the "stereo downmix" vs. "5.1 downmix"?  All of the music (and movie content) will be presented via the 2 main speakers if you select "stereo downmix".   (Results may not be as good if you select "5.1 downmix" and don't connect the center channel.  I suggest that you experiment, and decide what sounds best.)  

 

You can still use a subwoofer (or multiple subwoofers), via a 2.1 configuration. 

 

That leaves open the question as to whether there is any worthwhile rear channel content.  I recently listened to rear channel content of the recordings that I often listen to, and decided that the small amount of rear channel audio has little value to me. 

 

My Oppo players (UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95) support 2.1, and I'm very satisfied with this arrangement for both music (classical and opera) and movies.

Robert are you the one with a bunch of nice  high end gear around Kansas City? I feel like we have talked before via pm 

[RoboKlipsch]

15 hours ago, tnycman said:

I'm going to place a center, now the question is how will i manage with the little clearance i have..

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The vast majority, in fact almost all center speakers, are designed for your situation.

While it may be ideal to have matching L-C-Rs all at ear level height, that is ideal and in no way the only good sounding setup.

 

Most people have a center that sits just below their screen no matter what height that is, and they point them upwards a bit so the tweeter is pointing at ear height at the listening positions.

 

On the floor is definitely not ideal for a typical center speaker (horizontal M-T-M designs).  Many people put them on stands.  They can also go above the TV and with good results, it all depends upon the room and setup (how high the tv is and such).  But even on the floor I think you'll like it better than no center.  Whichever puts the center closer to ear height (above or below) is where it should be put.  You can experiment and try both.

 

In a setup where almost all you will do is watch movies and shows, I can't stress enough how important I think it is, but I am one person with one opinion no more valuable than any of the others.  

[robert_kc]

People have differing tastes, and different needs.

 

People have different needs partly based on their room size, room shape, and furnishings.   My TV room is small:  12’ x 13’.  My Klipsch Palladium tower speakers are 5’ apart, measured center-to-center.  There is no need IMO to “fill in” the sound via a center channel speaker, when the main speakers are this close together.   As I said in my earlier post, all the music (and movie content, including dialog) is presented via the 2 main speakers when I select "stereo downmix" (vs. 5.1 downmix) in my Oppo universal players’ configuration parameters.  (Results may not be as good if you select "5.1 downmix" and don't connect the center channel.)   My Oppo players downmix audio to 2.1 in a manner that results in excellent sound quality, and the music (and movie dialog) is not compromised – even for movies (and SACDs) that feature surround-sound.   (In other words, there is no missing content.)

 

OTOH - In my basement system, the speakers are much farther apart (12 feet) than any of my 4 other systems.  If I end up with extra speakers, I will experiment further in my basement system with a center channel.  Because of the relatively large space between the speakers, I think there might be benefit to “fill in” the sound.  And, because of the size of the room, the additional acoustical power provided by a center channel might be beneficial (with 5.1 recordings). 

 

Switching gears to rear speakers, some people like action movies, and enjoy the surround-sound experience.   I prefer movies that have a story, and I generally don’t care about hearing sounds coming from behind me when watching a movie.   IMO - for the types of movies that I watch – rear-channel audio effects do not enhance the movie’s story.   With that said, I’m certain there are some scenes in some movies that I like that would be enhanced via surround-sound.   (For example, the “echo game” scene in “House of Flying Daggers”.   However, IMO the important part of this movie is the story (in this case an ancient Chinese tragic love story), not the special effects.)   As I said earlier, I respect the fact that different people have different tastes.   Some people would find my taste in movies boring.   I like movies that are true stories, such as “Genius”, “Loving”, “Hidden Figures”, “A Street Cat Named Bob”, “Sully”, “War Dogs”, “Woman in Gold”, “Marguerite”, “Trumbo”, “Spotlight”, “Too Big to Fail”, “The Big Short”, “Margin Call”, “The Theory of Everything”, “The Imitation Game” “The Intouchables” (not “The Untouchables”), etc.   These are all true stories that I enjoyed without surround-sound.   And, I enjoy Blu-ray videos of some operas and ballet, and related movies like “Immortal Beloved” and “Amadeus”.   Some people enjoy surround-sound effects in movies, whereas I regard such special-effects as largely a gimmick.   To each their own. 

 

I like classical music and opera.   I recently listened to several of my favorite 5.1 Blu-ray recordings of classical music and operas on a friend’s high-end professionally-calibrated surround-sound system.  My friend’s system sounded good, but I heard no benefit vs. my 2.1 systems.   IME, incidental sound (such as “hall presence”) in the rear speakers of 5.1 classical recordings has no benefit (and I heard no benefit associated with the center channel).   My friend’s surround-sound system sounded different, but not better.   

 

Switching gears to subwoofers - IMO, subwoofers can enhance music, particularly for large scale orchestral music that features pipe organ.  An example is the high-res 24bit/176kHz FLAC recording of the Kansas City Symphony performing Saint Saens Symphony 3 (Organ Symphony).  

 

Based on my taste in movies, occasionally a subwoofer adds to the enjoyment, but more often I find it annoying when extremely loud LFE bass comes blasting out in the middle of a movie.   For example, last night I watched “The Man Who Knew Infinity”, which is a story about a mathematician from India.   I thought it was a good movie, except there was a scene with an explosion that caused me to almost jump out of my chair.  The room was shaking.  I was not amused.   Some people enjoy extremely loud LFE in movies, whereas I usually find it annoying.  To each their own.  

 

In summary, IMO the most important speakers are full-range stereo main speakers, followed by a subwoofer, followed by everything else.   (And, BTW, I can enjoy a good movie (and music) in mono.)   Therefore, my answer to the original question “Is a center absolutely a must for HT” is this:   Whether you’ll benefit from a center channel speaker depends on whether you want surround-sound (in which case you’ll likely need the center channel if the 5.1 mix puts dialog in the center channel) vs. a 2.0 or 2.1 downmix (which has no sound assigned to a center channel).  Also relevant is your room layout, and your taste in movies and music.   However, IMO a center channel is not a “must” in order to enjoy movies and music -  if the audio is properly downmixed to 2.0 or 2.1 (i.e., none of the audio is omitted).