moray james Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 LISTENING VS. HEARING I often have older customers tell me they don't want to spend a lot on gear because their high frequency hearing is diminished and they wouldn't be able to appreciate the quality it offered. WRONG! To illustrate the point let me recount an experience I had early on in my audio career. At 18, and just out of high school, I went to work at the local high-end shop (we didn't use that term then, but we handled McIntosh, Klipsch, Marantz, etc., so I guess we'd fit that description today). The owner was a good friend of Paul Klipsch and Paul would visit the shop from time to time. Mr. Klipsch was a pilot and owned a small private plane that he flew regularly. I’m told that instead of headphones to monitor radio transmissions, Paul preferred a midrange horn (or, squawker as he called it) out of or Klipschorn. I can imagine how loud that must have been to hear the radio over the engine noise! Considering that and his rather advanced age, I'm sure Paul had zip for high frequency hearing. On one visit, Paul, and the rest of the crew at the shop were chatting and enjoying some tunes when Paul lept out of his chair shouting "Did you hear that? Play that part again!" We cued the cartridge back a bit and replayed the section, again with Paul exclaiming about what he'd heard - the rest of us struggling to perceive what he was describing. After several plays I could pick up a small amount of distortion that he heard immediately. Here I was - with pristine 18-year-old ears - struggling to hear the minutia that a gentleman approaching 70 picked out in an instant. It was a great lesson and taught me that "hearing" was more of a learned skill than an innate ability determined by physiological assets. The subtleties that a high resolution system can deliver should not be thought of as exclusively high frequency events requiring bat-like ears to recognize, but rather a wide ranging sample of different aural attributes easily perceived and enjoyed by people with a broad range of hearing. Audophiles who’ve trained themselves to “listen” easily hear and appreciate the nuance that a high resolution system can offer. It does not require 20Hz - 20kHz hearing to appreciate and enjoy a high end audio system. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDJohnson Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Thank you for sharing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueHusky79 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Valuable story, as PWK continues to teach us, plus another example of his wisdom that needs to be shared with future generations. Thank you for sharing, Moray. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Just curious, how do you train yourself to listen? What are you trying to hear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Lately I always listen for stuff that isn't supposed to be there like graveled voices and cymbals that sound like they have rags over them. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 I should have mentioned (I was very tired when I posted) that I lifted this from a site on line there was no name given so I did a cut and paste perhaps it was from the owner of the site. I thought it was likely a true story and worth re posting here. I have spent a lot of years working in audio and a lot of listening and evaluation. on loudspeakers electronics and cables which have been my mainstay for almost the last thirty years. Practice. Take a digital coax cable 75 ohms fitted with RCA connectors and I don't care what kind or cable or ends you use. flag the cable with a piece of tape at one end you choose just so you know one direction from the other. Inject the digital into your system listen to a good recording you know well say with female voice and listen to part of a track then reverse the direction of the cable and listen again. this is best done with digital so you don't wear your records thin. You should hear a difference if you don't keep trying. If you simply cannot heat the difference then you need to play with speaker placement and or other cables in your system til you can there is one you just have to listen, You could do the same with a fuse listening to it in one direction and then the other same kind of differences or listening to different power cords on your transport. Over time you simply learn to cue in to the differences and find what's the same what's different. I have developed this skill and it has been very useful in the voicing of loudspeakers cables and components and also in system set up. I hate to tell you this but most systems are not well set up and most often are performing well below what they are capable of. I don't have golden ears by a long stretch but they are well trained. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 12, 2017 Moderators Share Posted June 12, 2017 14 hours ago, moray james said: Mr. Klipsch was a pilot and owned a small private plane that he flew regularly. I’m told that instead of headphones to monitor radio transmissions, Paul preferred a midrange horn (or, squawker as he called it) out of or Klipschorn. I can imagine how loud that must have been to hear the radio over the engine noise! In Hope the midrange horn is still used all through the plant and engineering buildings for announcements and horn sounds for breaks and quitting time. They are enclosed in a plywood box suspended from the ceiling. Why not, it makes sense, PWK was a no nonsense person. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Changing electronics in and out as often as I do I'd like to think I Listen; for the differences from one component to the next. You must actually Listen to find the minute differences in amps, preamps, tubes etc, as to what brings more to the ear. And not make light or hijack I tell my wife something very similar - I Heard you, I just wasn't listening --. She gets it -- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Forgive me if this is lacking sensitivity, but listening to fuses and power cords is complete lunacy. What the hell have you guys been smoking? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 29 minutes ago, Ski Bum said: Forgive me if this is lacking sensitivity, but listening to fuses and power cords is complete lunacy. What the hell have you guys been smoking? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsosdrummer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Ski Bum said: Forgive me if this is lacking sensitivity, but listening to fuses and power cords is complete lunacy. What the hell have you guys been smoking? We hear with our brains, not with our ears. To that end, our hearing (in our brain) can be influenced to hear "differences" that are not caused by a difference only in the stimulus it receives through our auditory system. If you believe that amplifiers with blue faceplates sound better than amplifiers with any other color faceplates, then every time you listen to an amp that you know has a blue faceplate it will sound better to you. After a while, you will hear those differences just as if they are being caused solely by auditory stimulation. After all, if we can teach our brains how to hear things that are there, we can also teach them how to hear things that aren't there. People who hear differences in fuses and power cords are indeed experiencing those differences in their brain's hearing mechanism, but the differences they perceive aren't being caused by differences in stimulus from their auditory systems — those differences are being caused by other factors. And those other factors can have just as big an effect on our hearing as does the stimulus from our auditory systems — sometimes more. Double-blind testing can teach us a lot about how to recognize what we get from our auditory systems apart from all the other bullshit that creeps into our brain's hearing mechanism, and that can be a very sobering lesson for those who hear differences in fuses, power cords, cable-lifters and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 29 minutes ago, hsosdrummer said: We hear with our brains, not with our ears. But we listen with?.... and we all know what we think with.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 37 minutes ago, hsosdrummer said: We hear with our brains, not with our ears. To that end, our hearing (in our brain) can be influenced to hear "differences" that are not caused by a difference only in the stimulus it receives through our auditory system. If you believe that amplifiers with blue faceplates sound better than amplifiers with any other color faceplates, then every time you listen to an amp that you know has a blue faceplate it will sound better to you. After a while, you will hear those differences just as if they are being caused solely by auditory stimulation. After all, if we can teach our brains how to hear things that are there, we can also teach them how to hear things that aren't there. People who hear differences in fuses and power cords are indeed experiencing those differences in their brain's hearing mechanism, but the differences they perceive aren't being caused by differences in stimulus from their auditory systems — those differences are being caused by other factors. And those other factors can have just as big an effect on our hearing as does the stimulus from our auditory systems — sometimes more. Double-blind testing can teach us a lot about how to recognize what we get from our auditory systems apart from all the other bullshit that creeps into our brain's hearing mechanism, and that can be a very sobering lesson for those who hear differences in fuses, power cords, cable-lifters and the like. you are entitled to your opinion and I mine so lets agree to disagree. You go your way and I will go mine. Good luck on your journey. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, moray james said: you are entitled to your opinion and I mine so lets agree to disagree. You go your way and I will go mine. Good luck on your journey. No "best regards?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldred Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Come on.....I really like the amps with blue face plates. George, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 those are the best regards I have and I gave them tied up with a "good luck" bow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Interesting topic, don't know that I've got the ability to discern the way that you can @moray james but I've always deemed cabling important. It's just like the rubber between your 16 valve V8 and the pavement, it matters. The laughable thin stuff that came with my first Panasonic record player, changing from 18 gauge to 14 to 12 twisted. At that time thinking that the resistivity would be lower with a larger path for some 4 ohm speakers I had. Removing the fuse from the path I can hear immediately. Replacing twisted monster from 1992 just last fall with something more 'high tech" found a sonic sweet spot here. Can't justify $15/ft for cabling but the $5/ft I spent / squandered (however YOU look at it ) on some good cables just changed my thinking on this totally! Cardas, Kimber Kable, Audioquest they've done their homework. The descriptive terminology they use sometimes makes me think of a card at the drug store. But I tried a low end variety of one of those brands and I'm not turning back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 47 minutes ago, JohnJ said: ...but I've always deemed cabling important. If this is so, I'd recommend also reporting the output impedance of the amplifier(s) that you're using, as well as the loudspeaker crossover input impedance vs. frequency at the same time. EDIT: If you don't know your loudspeakers' input impedance, then this little gadget works like a charm: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dats-v2-computer-based-audio-component-test-system--390-806 Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I believe our hearing comes courtesy of an "ear-brain" internal analytic system that is far more complicated than just being able to hear frequency responses or simple differences in impedance. I think that much of what we perceive is actually a learned response that differs among people -- hence sometimes big differences in the kinds and amount of detail that people can detect and determine. Some can hear a very low-level telephone ring in a noisy room and some cannot analyze it enough to tease out and recognize the faint sound tones. This seems similar to the "eye-brain" system that allows us to perceive a uniform height and perspectivetive of a person or building even as we approach closer and closer and walk around it/them even though you know that fundamental changes in input are taking place on the retina. The brain does one hell of a lot with that simple image. It also does one hell of a lot with the simple waveforms that are registering on your eardrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 ability to hear and/or listen is independent of knowledge... one without technical knowledge may actually have much more capability to hear and to discern. that may manifest itself in a manner where the individual might not be able to technically verbalize what hes hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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