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Jubilees- much bigger sounding than my Khorns and LaScalas- now with REW curves!!! A huge thanks to MetropolisLakeOutfitters and Chris A!!!


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On 7/10/2017 at 8:52 AM, Schu said:

I am still really worried that I cannot just plug and play them. While I don't think the process is over my head, it might be more work than I need versus the performance rewards for my particular listening space.

If the right parts are put together it is plug and play, if not there is no way I would be listening for the last 6+ years, I'm not one to figure this stuff out. I got the right parts plugged it in and listened. This will get you 95% there, close enough for me.

I got a DX-38 from a forum member and he had the program in it already for what I was going to use, plugged in into a DAC (with a volume knob instead of a preamp) for a source  and on the other end 2 Crown D 75 amps with wires running out to each speaker and fired it up. Cory is working on selling different crossovers pre programed for this, from what I hear it's easy to put the numbers in anyway, well Coytee did it, how hard can it be ? :o:P

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On 7/10/2017 at 8:52 AM, Schu said:

I am dying to try a 2" driver, but I find my current set up somewhat overwhelming for my listening space (roughly 25x35).

Overwhelming, even a LaScala could be in that space if turned loud enough, but you wouldn't run it that way. I do not have jube bass bins, but MWM instead with the 402 horn, it's in a room 24' wide and 34' deep. Yes with power it can easily shake the house, but we run them like any other speaker, 90% of the time where you can easily talk, and they sound great, that space is plenty big enough.

 

On 7/10/2017 at 8:52 AM, Schu said:

The LSii's are performing phenomenally right now and I can't use but a fraction of their capabilities.

  I completely believe that, there is the problem and only you can answer it, it's not need but want. It's not need because the LaScala ll can easily sound good in a room 50% bigger than yours. With "need" it is much easier to convince yourself to do it. 

 

If you never heard them in person, I would think it's a good idea to hear them first, this will make it really tough for you. :D

 

 

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On 7/10/2017 at 10:32 AM, richieb said:

And like nearly any and all discussions involving hifi getting to that 100% mark is difficult and for most out of reach. But for many including me, getting to the say, that 95 percentile remains good enough. Actually very good, IMO.

True, when I said 95%  with the standard electronic crossover settings I was not trying to say what Chris A is doing is not making a difference or room treatments helping.  But rather that straight out the box standard active programing is quite amazing, like you said "very good", so good in my room I never touched it in 6.5 years. I'm not a tinkerer, I just like music, and it's very impressive, 100% no, but it's so good I don't care about the last little bit, not important at all. Easily the best I have ever had, or heard, for the first time in my life I really have no interest in listening or looking at other speakers, I'm done.   

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On 7/10/2017 at 6:52 AM, Schu said:

it might be more work than I need versus the performance rewards for my particular listening space.

Schu,

You have a nice system. Some members have recommended buying a plane ticket, or taking a road trip to take a good listen to Jubilee's. I think that's good advice. So. Cal. is not far,  you would think a forum member down there would have a pair...

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On 7/10/2017 at 10:49 AM, Trentster5172 said:

Chris A- do you have some good stuff I can try that would show balance below 200 hz?

Check your email.

 

On 7/10/2017 at 10:49 AM, Trentster5172 said:

I have found the Jubs are actually happier tight in the corners of the room- not quite as tight as the Khorns, which were sealed to the wall, but within an inch or so (almost touching the baseboards). 

This is one of the reasons to do in-room measurements using something like REW and a UMIK-1: bass response below 200 Hz is usually quite variable from room to room, and one the strongest factors in in-room response is how close you put them relative to the room corners. I've seen variations on the order of 10+ dB in the 30-150 Hz band from the measurements that I've received from Jub owners, and the response peaks were not at the same frequencies from room-to-room. 

 

On 7/10/2017 at 10:49 AM, Trentster5172 said:

The speakers are angled halfway between the angles of the flat part of the two sides.  If I align it along the wall of the side furthest front it's not enough angle for the 402, and if I go along the angle of the second side it seems to be too much.  I've angled them right between the two, so maybe 25-30 degrees?  The 402's are aligned with the front of the bin and angled down to the one on the slide scale.

The biggest challenge with the Jubilee is, surprisingly, aiming the bass bins--which have really narrow polars from about 250-450 Hz (same thing for the MCM bass bins).  So you need to get those bins oriented on-axis to your listening position, or calibrated (i.e., EQed) to a certain off-axis angle.  This is one of the motivating factors in why I started on the MEH design - since its polars really don't narrow in the mid-bass region.

 

The K-402 really doesn't care where you aim it, since its polars are rock solid from 0-40 degrees (see below for the K-402-MEH relative polars taken outside on an elevated stand, which are based on the on-axis measurement, which in the case of the MEH is using the K-402 all the way from 30 Hz to 20 kHz):

 

K-402-MEH Normalized Off-Axis FR 10-60 deg.png

 

The K-402 is really insensitive where you aim it (in terms of direct SPL vs. frequency, but not necessarily room reflections from nearly walls).  This is the opposite situation to almost all other loudspeakers--in which it's the HF horns that must be carefully oriented to the listening position.

 

 

3 hours ago, dtel said:

True, when I said 95% with the standard electronic crossover settings, I was not trying to say what Chris A is doing is not making a difference or room treatments helping.  But rather that straight out the box standard active programing is quite amazing, like you said "very good", so good in my room I never touched it in 6.5 years...Easily the best I have ever had, or heard...

 

This is no different than any other loudspeakers using passive crossovers: if you just plunk them in a room without any EQ adjustments, you'll be finding yourself choosing different amplifiers, preamps, and even recordings that "fix" that last 5% (as I'm assuming you're alluding to). 

 

[Note that MWM bass bins are a little different than the Jub bass bins just due to their size and the necessity of placing them along a wall boundary in-room, and not "tightly" in corners.  This also places the K-402s and KPT-305s (etc.) further away from room walls than Jubilees.  Perhaps more on this subject in a future thread...]

 

I find that it's that last 5% that makes the difference between "it sounds really good" and--complete silence listening--just getting into the musical or cinema experience. Once you finally get everything dialed in nicely, especially the bass below ~200 Hz, everything just frees itself up, and you forget that you're listening to loudspeakers but rather to music.  I think of this like a really good movie theater (...with Klipsch loudspeakers, that is).  You forget about the sound system entirely. 

 

That's what's in that last 5%...in my experience.  I've demonstrated this effect to myself enough times now that I'm not quite so "gobsmacked" in the resulting sound once I get everything dialed in--I've come to expect it to some degree now.

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, Chris A said:

This is no different than any other loudspeakers using passive crossovers: if you just plunk them in a room without any EQ adjustments, you'll be finding yourself choosing different amplifiers, preamps, and even recordings that "fix" that last 5% (as I'm assuming you're alluding to). 

If you're trying to get the last 5%, I'm not, but if I were I would definitely go with testing the room before changing out equipment. I don't see how you could go wrong by measuring the room to see what's going on, you could go wrong trying to fix it if not careful. This is where some experience comes in. 

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

[Note that MWM bass bins are a little different than the Jub bass bins just due to their size and the necessity of placing them along a wall boundary in-room, and not "tightly" in corners.  This also places the K-402s and KPT-305s (etc.) further away from room walls than Jubilees.  Perhaps more on this subject in a future thread...]

I didn't have a choice but to put them in the corner. It's a living room and quite dead, heavy curtains, rug and a bunch of cushioned furniture. I did get lucky with equipment noise, I have none, it can be 100 db with music and dead quiet between songs even with a ear in a horn. I am sure glad I didn't get any ground hum, the XLR cables could have helped with that ? I am a little surprised there is no noise with my lack of cable management with the 402 being so sensitive. 

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Chris A- Thanks so much for your help today working from a raw initial sweep without any PEQ's!!!  Chris A really made it easy to dial my Jubilees in after their initial breakin.  For those of you worried about going to Jubilees and an active crossover worry not.  The process was as follows:

 

Day 1- Chris A emailed me a basic setup for my Xilica to get me started.  I ran it for about a week.  They sounded great!  There were some issues with sibilance from certain recordings where the sibilance was already harsh.

 

Today Chris A and I decided to give them a final tune after breaking them in.  I bypassed all of the PEQ's in XConsole essentially just using the Xilica as a basic flat crossover (using the same crossover settings he had already sent).  I took separate raw readings from REW from both speakers which were pretty much identical.  I took the readings by placing a microphone on a microphone stand about one meter in front of both speakers.  I emailed Chris A the reading from the left speaker since it was the last I took and just left the microphone in place in front of the left speaker.  He emailed me new settings for my Xilica based on the REW data I emailed him.  I downloaded this into the Xilica via XConsole.  I took another reading from the left speaker using REW and he knocked it out of the park pretty much flat on the first try!  I emailed the second REW reading to him and he made some small tweaks in the higher frequencies with two additional mild PEQ's.  He sent the file back to me and I plugged it into the Xilica via XConsole and that was it!  Listening bliss!!!  I love these things.  Chris A was very pleased with his work as the results were +/-2 dB from 30 Hz -20 kHz, with a rising response of 1.8 dB/octave from 100 Hz down to about 25 Hz.  He said it was actually a slightly better frequency response than his own room.  It's really nice having such a big room- I feel lucky, and thankful to have such a dojo to listen in!  He also said the phase curve is as about as flat as he's seen as well.  

 

My thoughts on the Jubilees?  These things are epic to say the least!!!  If you are considering a set they are a worthy leap.  My explanation of what we did may seem complicated, but Chris A totally walked me through it on the phone.  Thanks again Chris A!!!

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Alright!  Here are the curves:

 

10 db scale- 

Green- RAW with just crossover at 400 no PEQs

Blue- second pass after first tweak from Chris A.

Red- final from Chris A with a 5db bass boost PEQ at 40hz that I added for what Scrappy referred to as a "House Curve" for your favorite electronic house music.

 

 

 

IMG_9547.JPG

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I found that placing my Jubilees tight in the corners, almost like my Khorns, yielded the best bass performance.  As you can see from the REW curves I have very strong LF response down to 30hz and only about a 4db drop at 25hz!!!  Awesome speakers!!!

 

Here's a picture of my bass bin angle looking down from the top at the side wall.

 

 

IMG_9554.JPG

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One of the things that I'd like to highlight in Trent's Jub frequency response, if you look closely at the following graph, you'll see that he's getting 24 Hz response (-3 dB) out of his Jub bass bins.  I attribute this response to the full corners that he's got them in and the careful attention to detail in aiming them and placing them relative to the room corners:

 

596b9164b9b18_Trentscorrectedresponse.png.35067a5d01815ce2a107023dfaa05080.png

 

I see a lot of Jub installations where the response is cutting off at about 37 Hz or higher.  Simply by using the room's corner's effectively and EQing carefully, he's getting another half of an octave lower response.  The harmonic distortion rise is minimal, even though he's getting an additional 1/2 octave of bass (which is a great deal of extension):

 

596b926e871b8_TrentsJubSetupHarmonicDistortion.png.ec2561734e1ecba821ef0b07ea548631.png

 

Chris

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