Chris A Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 53 minutes ago, mark1101 said: Flat response but that is a lot of filtering. Based on what? Personal expectations? Perhaps you should ask the person that owns them how they sound now that they're dialed in. Phase: Group delay/excess group delay: Impulse/step response: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trentster5172 Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, mark1101 said: Flat response but that is a lot of filtering. They sound unbelievable! I love it!!! Chris A- I'll email the final REW sweep to you and my Xilica settings salted to taste just so you have them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 You have a nice stereo system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 That's all that matters. Enjoy. I'm sure it's excellent. The Jubilee setup is complicated and so this is now turn key. Done. A very good thing. However, if you or anyone experiments with these processors...........and this has nothing to do with Klipsch or Jubilees, you will find that the more filters that are engaged, the more "veils" get laid over the music. Albeit it may not be excessive but it is definitely audible........say the difference between using 3 and 6 filters on a channel. If you are looking for most transparency the goal should always be to use less digital filtering. That then brings the question of what filters are absolutely required and which ones could be left out............or.........Is there another way to get the same or similar response with less filters? It's just tweaking and exploring your tools. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 43 minutes ago, mark1101 said: you will find that the more filters that are engaged, the more "veils" get laid over the music. Albeit it may not be excessive but it is definitely audible........say the difference between using 3 and 6 filters on a channel. If you are looking for most transparency the goal should always be to use less digital filtering Again, this is what I thought you were going to say. So what does this mean for FIR filters? Are they "veil-laden"? These filters use perhaps thousands of taps to define each filter. I think that perhaps that your experiences that led you to this conclusion must have been something that wasn't involved with digital filtering, but rather analog filters and poor analog output sections of DSP crossovers that can cause this effect--like the Behringer DCX2496, perhaps some on the 24/48 digital crossovers that you have used in the past. I don't agree with your assumption of the cause involving digital filters. You probably haven't heard any of the Xilica processors, or the Yamaha SP2060 dialed-in properly on a Jub with TADs, etc. Chris 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, mark1101 said: However, if you or anyone experiments with these processors...........and this has nothing to do with Klipsch or Jubilees, you will find that the more filters that are engaged, the more "veils" get laid over the music. Albeit it may not be excessive but it is definitely audible........say the difference between using 3 and 6 filters on a channel. If you are looking for most transparency the goal should always be to use less digital filtering. Hey Mark I have to say this hasn't been my experience with the EV DC-ONE or the DSpeaker Dual Core using FIR as well as standard digital filters as long as they are used responsibly. miketn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I have experienced issues related to big boosting PEQs and the cumulative effects of boosting EQ across many filters that have led to spurious behavior issues from the Dx38, and even the Xilica (if pushed to the extreme). I believe that is what Mike is referring to "being used responsibly"--using common sense to avoid boosting PEQs wherever possible, etc. You can hear the difference between +/-4 dB and +/-2 dB in the sound--and it's not subtle. But the flattening effects are really pronounced with the best recordings and not so much in highly processed popular music recordings that you see me fixing in the "Missing Octave" thread (which includes over 99% of released recordings). The improvement in sound after flattening is like the difference between "that sounds really good" and "you are there". I've found that these are orchestral and acoustic recordings of the highest quality--usually Blu-Ray audio discs, multichannel SACDs of recordings originally done within the last 25 years, and DVD-As of similarly recent recordings. These recordings benefit most dramatically from FR flattening since their EQ and dynamics were basically not tampered with when released. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I knew I would get comments about this. It's my experience with the Ashly processors and a lot of tweaking. It has nothing to do with anything analog. It's what I was told by tech support at Ashly, is easily heard, and it's even stated in the manual. Pretty common knowledge. I have no experience with FIR filters other than to read in multiple places that the Xilica processors get brought to their knees when using them........and the recommendation is not to use them. I would bet a paycheck that if you reduced the number of filters on a channel from 6 to 2 or 3 you would hear it. Even with the Xilica and EV processors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, mark1101 said: I would bet a paycheck that if you reduced the number of filters on a channel from 6 to 2 or 3 you would hear it. Even with the Xilica and EV processors. How big is that paycheck? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 See now... All this stuff in the way scares me. Transparency is critical to my listening enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, Schu said: All this stuff in the way scares me. Transparency is critical to my listening enjoyment. The reason why I take issue with what is being said is because I don't experience what Mark is saying, at all. I'm pretty sensitive to "transparency" myself. I was a musician once by training/education and I do know the difference. I cannot hear any "veiling" with the Xilicas--in fact, its just the opposite. It's breathtaking at times. I can hear the difference between a Dx38 and the Xilicas/Yamaha, but these are in different generations of DSP crossovers - separated by more than a decade in electronics and processor performance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I am happy the OP has his Jubs operating the way he likes. That's what's important here. Not going to ruin this thread. Do some Googling Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 On 7/10/2017 at 8:41 AM, Chris A said: You know...you don't have to wait until your hearing is gone due to presbycusis. I know a guy in Kentucky that will take your credit card and shipping address. He's a real nice guy, too. (They're about the price of new La Scala IIs.) BTW: the real thing sounds a lot better than YouTube audio over little loudspeakers...but you probably already knew that. Chris Schu, I don't have jub's but I do have Khorns with 2" drivers and I can affirm what Chris said about the loudness. My room is small compared to most 16.5x13.5x8 and I assure you I never ever get close to max volume, as far as that goes my amp is a whopping 2wpc on it's best day. With that said it will and can run you right out of the room if you so desire!!! I probably listen between 80-90 db most of the time and that is just to feel the dynamics and the weight of the music. The difference between my Khorns stock and with the 2" drivers is just stupid!!! Next to zero distortion much more clarity and cleaness, hope this helps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, mark1101 said: I would bet a paycheck that if you reduced the number of filters on a channel from 6 to 2 or 3 you would hear it. Even with the Xilica and EV processors. I'm interested in what you are saying Mark because I like to understand the pro vs con of anything since nothing is perfect and any information you might have to post I would appreciate..!!! So with having said the above... My experience has been as long as the EV is used with common sense any possible negative audible issues it might bring to the table are far outweighed by the audible benefits/improvements I gain. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I'm not saying anything. Read the manual on the Ashly Protea processors. Call Ashly tech support and get the full technical reasoning behind their claims. Read what others say about practical use. You know most folks do not use these processors in high end audiophile systems in a home. They were designed more for pro audio sound reinforcement systems where these type of details don't necessarily get noticed. I definitely noticed at my house though. Maybe I just have inferior equipment to what you guys have. I could accept that. Mike, Can you explain what you have done to prove to yourself this is not true? I will tell you what I have done. I input Roy's settings into RACE and got the response curve of the total filters just like above in this thread. However, an Ashly Protea processor can't do some of the shelves specified by Roy. So I used the the Protea software to reproduce the RACE response curve as closely as possible. I found through experimentation that there are multiple ways to come up with virtually the same response using the different filters, Q, and gains. So I made a few different presets. Some were very similar to one another. Some had a few less filters per channel to achieve virtually the same curve. These were the ones I preferred the sound of. I also found that using extra filters to drive the FR flat where minor excursions existed resulted in a more veiled sound. Less was more. When I turned those off and returned to the basic EQing of the 402 horn that was what sounded best to me and what I use today. Again, don't take my word for it...........PLEASE contact Ashly and get their feedback. Read their manual. They went over my settings (long time ago) to verify what I was using to replicate Roy's curve was well within the envelope for the Protea firmware in the device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, mark1101 said: Do some Googling Chris. I have, many times. I don't think Google is going to negate the rather extensive testing that I've done using 6 different active crossovers in my setup: EV Dx38, Yamaha SP2060, Behringer DCX2496, Crown XTi, and two different Xilica loudspeaker processors (XP series). Soon that list will expand include miniDSP 2x4 HR, and perhaps others. I've spent a great deal of time over the past 3 years in particular on this subject--probably more than 250 hours of testing, mostly in late 2014, and the balance last fall. This is in addition to the 9 1/2 years of using active crossovers with the Jubs/TADs. What you are saying was not reflected in any of my tests and listening trials. I've found that having issues with other parts of the test setup can have significant sound quality effects, as well as not having sufficient experience doing it right--and doing it wrong. I've also found that lower quality crossover units have a significant impact on the resulting sound quality, so I recommend only those units that I've heard personally. It doesn't include Ashly, BTW, because I haven't heard them personally. Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa) Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trentster5172 Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 I am very happy, and very pleased with my setup and the way it is performing! There is a place in Boise called The Stereo Shoppe. It's much nicer than any stereo store I've ever come across- even in other states. They have two very nice listening rooms- one with very nice McIntosh gear and one with a very nice Integra Atmos setup. Everything used separates in their primary listening rooms. Both rooms are well over $100,000 I'm sure. Heck, the McIntosh room has like $30,000 speaker cables to the front mains which are B & W 800 D3's!!! That being said, I'd put my current Klipsch Jubilee/Emotiva/Parasound/Xilica/Yamaha/Oppo setup up against anything they've got at this point! And personally, I don't know of anyone first hand that has a nicer setup that I've actually seen or heard in person. I know tons of people that built unimaginable theaters in their houses and then suddenly got cheap when installing the gear!!! Chris A made the magic happen without ever stepping a foot in my house! His instructions were easy to understand and the results are breathtaking. He also left me with the knowledge that I could probably come pretty close to duplicating it if I absolutely had to. I guess you could say he was able to do it "blindfolded" and taught someone to fish. I sincerely appreciate his help and value is knowledge and willingness to share. If I'd hired someone to do this it would have cost a small fortune and I probably would have learned nothing. Sincere appreciation is noted!!! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Chris A said: I have, many times. I don't think Google is going to negate the rather extensive testing that I've done using 6 different active crossovers in my setup: EV Dx38, Yamaha SP2060, Behringer DCX2496, Crown XTi, and two different Xilica loudspeaker processors (XP series). Soon that list will expand include miniDSP 2x4 HR, and perhaps others. I've spent a great deal of time over the past 3 years in particular on this subject--probably more than 250 hours of testing, mostly in late 2014, and the balance last fall. This is in addition to the 9 1/2 years of using active crossovers with the Jubs/TADs. What you are saying was not reflected in any of my tests and listening trials. I've found that having issues with other parts of the test setup can have significant sound quality effects, as well as not having sufficient experience doing it right--and doing it wrong. I've also found that lower quality crossover units have a significant impact on the resulting sound quality, so I recommend only those units that I've heard personally. It doesn't include Ashly, BTW, because I haven't heard them personally. Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa) Chris Chris, I've probably done just as much testing and experimenting as you. Not exactly the same as you though. I've stated that what I am saying is not my opinion and is in the Ashly manual and confirmed by tech support. Yet you seem to want to argue about it. That it's not so. I think that's funny. This bothers you. My system is a 5 way, 2 processor, MCM Grand with subs............and the only potential commonality to the 2-way Jubs is from 600-6K.......MAYBE. So my settings wouldn't be like anyone else's anyhow. All I was doing was stating an obvious operating characteristic about digital processors. Now don't be stalking me. You are quite a creepy dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 As far as passive crossover, not room equalization, the circuit would be extremely simple would it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 To trentster..............I'm seriously glad you are happy with your Jubs. That is what this is all about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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