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Jubilees- much bigger sounding than my Khorns and LaScalas- now with REW curves!!! A huge thanks to MetropolisLakeOutfitters and Chris A!!!


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9 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

...not my opinion and is in the Ashly manual...

I didn't find anything in the Ashly manuals related to this.

 

Chris

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5 hours ago, mark1101 said:

I'm not saying anything.  Read the manual on the Ashly Protea processors.  Call Ashly tech support and get the full technical reasoning behind their claims.  Read what others say about practical use.

 

Is this the manual you are referring to Mark..?

Ashley protea-48SP-36SP-r06.pdf

 

I'm not seeing anything about warnings of more filters = more veils

 

5 hours ago, mark1101 said:

You know most folks do not use these processors in high end audiophile systems in a home.  They were designed more for pro audio sound reinforcement systems where these type of details don't necessarily get noticed.  I definitely noticed at my house though.

 

I never said you didn't hear what you claim I simply said I haven't experienced what you claim as far as more filters = more veiling.

 

5 hours ago, mark1101 said:

Mike,

Can you explain what you have done to prove to yourself this is not true?

 

I will tell you what I have done.  I input Roy's settings into RACE and got the response curve of the total filters just like above in this thread.  However, an Ashly Protea processor can't do some of the shelves specified by Roy.  So I used the the Protea software to reproduce the RACE response curve as closely as possible.  I found through experimentation that there are multiple ways to come up with virtually the same response using the different filters, Q, and gains.  So I made a few different presets.  Some were very similar to one another.  Some had a few less filters per channel to achieve virtually the same curve.  These were the ones I preferred the sound of.  I also found that using extra filters to drive the FR flat where minor excursions existed resulted in a more veiled sound.   Less was more.  When I turned those off and returned to the basic EQing of the 402 horn that was what sounded best to me and what I use today.

 

Again, don't take my word for it...........PLEASE contact Ashly and get their feedback.  Read their manual.  They went over my settings  (long time ago) to verify what I was using to replicate Roy's curve was well within the envelope for the Protea firmware in the device.

 

Mark again I will say since I have no idea how or where you were applying filters I really can't make judgments on your results.

 

All I can tell you is when I decide to apply a filter it is based on measurements and listening and if it measures good but sounds bad I haven't measured or taken into consideration all that is relevant. When filters are well applied clarity is improved and veils are lifted in my experience. My experience thus far is its not the number of filters but the proper implementation of any filters applied.

 

miketn

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You guys are correct that the manual does not contain what I said I read there.  I must have been mistaken and so I apologize and not to mislead.  It is in my notes and power points that I created in 2010 when transforming RACE into Protea curves with my own settings and getting an approvals and tips from Ashly tech support to minimize the number of filters. This is what I was told. I could have sworn I read this but it must have been from just the tech support unless it is in something else I read.  I figured this out a couple of hours ago reviewing things and already contacted Ashly tech support to verify once again.  I have been using these processors for years and I am very sure about how they work and how they sound best.  I've in either direction with them.

 

Mike, the only way you can prove this to yourself if to try creating another profile/preset with less filters, but that comes as close as possible to the target response.  If you haven't tried and experimented with this then you surely can't relate to what I am saying.  When you say that filters properly applied lift veils.........compared to what?  What is reference?  How do you know a veil has been lifted?  Do you have some A/B test with a reference you can compare to in close to real time?  You could just change presets to compare.  You could also ask EV tech support.

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My ears, not graphs, tell me my passive Jubes sound extremely good. My current solid state front end sounds so good I have little interest in several tube amps that now sit and are being sold. So good that I ask myself why are Hypex nCore monoblocks showing up in a couple days? Because like much of the above experimentation, to see if I can find another % of better. Because its fun. Just do it - passively. 

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6 hours ago, mark1101 said:

Mike, the only way you can prove this to yourself if to try creating another profile/preset with less filters, but that comes as close as possible to the target response.  If you haven't tried and experimented with this then you surely can't relate to what I am saying.  When you say that filters properly applied lift veils.........compared to what?  What is reference?  How do you know a veil has been lifted?  Do you have some A/B test with a reference you can compare to in close to real time?  You could just change presets to compare.  You could also ask EV tech support.

Again Mark, you assert something that you say is true until it is proven false.  I've done that due diligence that you refer to and I can tell you that the assertion that you make is not true in my experience. 

 

Since I now use REW's EQ facility, it includes an optimizer that produces the best set of PEQs based on the target curve that is user controllable, and it can do it all in one step if you so choose.  An operation that used to take hours or days is now done in a few minutes--and I've used it to help almost a dozen guys dial in their Jubs successfully (remotely online), i.e., this isn't a trivial subject.  The REW EQ facility is very powerful and really quite easy to use, especially if you know what you're trying to achieve with it.  (It's one of those "AIs" that Elon Musk has warned us all about ;))

 

Mark, we've listened to your "arbitrarily minimizing the use of digital filters because it 'veils the sound'" argument for many years now (perhaps as much as 10)--on this forum and in person. The reason why you apparently feel "picked on" is because the argument itself is getting a little worn. 

 

The reason why I called it into question in this otherwise excellent thread (thanks Trent...and I apologize for this distraction) wasn't because I'm not trying to be friendly, it's because I'd like to move on and not continuously debate that notion's merits yet again in every good thread on active crossovers. Use of active crossovers is a subject for which I've invested a fair amount of time and effort into clarifying what actually works and what doesn't work--not only for my personal needs but for others' benefit, too.  Let's move on.

 

Chris

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You are correct that this has been something I discovered and have mentioned numerous times over the years.  Not new in my book.  I'm fine with the fact not everyone hears the same or encounters the same experience.  Cool by me.

 

I'm sorry to have distracted this thread.  Honestly, I am happy to see the excitement of someone who hadn't heard Jubs before and got a first class implementation right off the bat.

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NIce to see that awesome bass response from the jubes.

 

Congrats.

 

I'm just seeing this thread as I have been out of pocket due to family issues.

 

I once called McIntosh about the MEN220 electronic XO they have when it came out years ago.  I had issues with the unit but I inquired about custom filters outside of the auto EQ features.  The advice given to me was avoid the use of "many filters" and moreso, avoid "broad Q's".

 

Now this was quite a few years ago so maybe processing has improved....or the advice was total BS.

 

jc

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51 minutes ago, jwc said:

I once called McIntosh about the MEN220 electronic XO they have when it came out years ago.  I had issues with the unit but I inquired about custom filters outside of the auto EQ features.  The advice given to me was avoid the use of "many filters" and moreso, avoid "broad Q's".

 

Hey jc

 

I believe what they could be warning about is unintended overlapping interaction of filters causing gain/ compensation issues for example or phase anomalies. Without being in on the conversation I could be missing something though.

 

Broad Q filters (ie: approximately 2 octaves) can be very useful as tone compensation for less than ideal recordings and is what I have used for the Cello Palette simulation program. These operate very similar to the Tone Controls found on many of the best McIntosh Pre-amps.

 

It really comes down to proper application and understanding along with becoming familiar with these very powerful filter tools which can bring very important improvements or if misused then disappointing results.

 

miketn 

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I installed the settings Trent and Chris came up with lastnight and I have to say they sound excellent. I tested the settings on music I have heard a million times and to my ears nothing sounded veiled, everything was there, bass, vocals, micro details, air. 

 

I still have Crites passives but I am selling them because the sound of the Xilica is in another league IMO and it can handle the power I'm using where the Crites can't. I had to make huge adjustments on my c50 pre amp to make the Crites passives sound good. 

 

I have the passives for sale if anyone is interested in them but I can tell you I wish I went with the Xilica for the start. If I where to use passives I'd be talking to ALK and see what he has to offer.

 

Mike.

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1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Hey jc

 

I believe what they could be warning about is unintended overlapping interaction of filters causing gain/ compensation issues for example or phase anomalies. Without being in on the conversation I could be missing something though.

 

Broad Q filters (ie: approximately 2 octaves) can be very useful as tone compensation for less than ideal recordings and is what I have used for the Cello Palette simulation program. These operate very similar to the Tone Controls found on many of the best McIntosh Pre-amps.

 

It really comes down to proper application and understanding along with becoming familiar with these very powerful filter tools which can bring very important improvements or if misused then disappointing results.

 

miketn 

 

Maybe so.  I have no idea.

 

When I was tinkering with this stuff more commonly in the past, I would use "suggested settings" by Klipsch on either a dbx PA or the EV Dx38.  I would love the sound....noticed clarity and dynamics....but as time moved on, I seemed to be missing something.  Then I would go back to analog.....maybe lose somethings and gain another.  In the end.....I had two parametric EQ on an analog active.  If you look at the REQ curves provided here of our new owner......you can guess where I targeted those 2 PEQ's above 400Hz.  It was the best sound I had.  Then I moved houses several times......and don't have that anymore.

 

Regardless, I'm happy for the new owner....and another vote for the Xilica with the Jube system.  Definitely no discredit there.

 

jc

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57 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

I believe what they could be warning about is unintended overlapping interaction of filters causing gain/ compensation issues for example or phase anomalies.

This reminds me of Weinberg's Count to Three Principle:

 

     "If you cannot think of three ways of abusing a tool, you don't understand how to use it."

 

I've probably made every error that one can easily think of using DSP crossovers over time.  The knowledge that comes from abusing the tool I find has served me well in using it effectively. The real story however is the freedom that it brings to experiment and change those things that were too hard to change using prior methods/technology (i.e., passive crossovers) and to hear the effects of things like:

 

How flat a response is flat enough?

What are the effects of getting the response really flat (i.e., less than ±2 dB from ~100 Hz to 20 kHz)?

What are the effects of aligning the drivers in all three dimensions (i.e., time alignment+physical alignment)?

How does one tweeter sound vs. another? How do their measured performances compare (including harmonic distortion)?  How does one horn sound vs. another?

 

It turns out that the answers to these questions probably aren't what you can guess beforehand.  There are many surprises in store.  But don't take my word for it: hear it for yourself.  Active crossovers make it accessible to get answers to these questions, and easy enough to enable you to carry on finding answers to even more questions.

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, Md5150 said:

I installed the settings Trent and Chris came up with lastnight and I have to say they sound excellent. I tested the settings on music I have heard a million times and to my ears nothing sounded veiled, everything was there, bass, vocals, micro details, air. 

 

I still have Crites passives but I am selling them because the sound of the Xilica is in another league IMO and it can handle the power I'm using where the Crites can't. I had to make huge adjustments on my c50 pre amp to make the Crites passives sound good. 

 

I have the passives for sale if anyone is interested in them but I can tell you I wish I went with the Xilica for the start. If I where to use passives I'd be talking to ALK and see what he has to offer.

 

Mike.

 

Mike,  

 

Hopefully you didn't have to manually enter the settings.  Which brings up this offer-  If anyone needs the Xilica settings Chris A helped me with let him or me know.  We would be happy to share if you wanted to play with them.

 

Trent

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30 minutes ago, Trentster5172 said:

 

Mike,  

 

Hopefully you didn't have to manually enter the settings.  Which brings up this offer-  If anyone needs the Xilica settings Chris A helped me with let him or me know.  We would be happy to share if you wanted to play with them.

 

Trent

 

Chris sent me the file, took me about a minute to install. I still plan to run REW as are rooms are similar but not the same.

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15 hours ago, Trentster5172 said:

 

Mike,  

 

Hopefully you didn't have to manually enter the settings.  Which brings up this offer-  If anyone needs the Xilica settings Chris A helped me with let him or me know.  We would be happy to share if you wanted to play with them.

 

Trent

Trent! Would you please send them to me? E-mail is billwhoo@reagan.com I have La Scala bins with K-402 horns. I believe the settings are the same?   Thank You!  Bill

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On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 4:05 PM, mark1101 said:

 I found through experimentation that there are multiple ways to come up with virtually the same response using the different filters, Q, and gains.

 

Are you running phase traces when determining frequency response? Different filter settings that yield the same frequency response will not have the same phase response. Phase response is a very important factor when aligning a system and flattening frequency response without considering phase will not give the best sound.

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13 hours ago, 32blownhemi said:

Trent! Would you please send them to me? E-mail is billwhoo@reagan.com I have La Scala bins with K-402 horns. I believe the settings are the same?   Thank You!  Bill

 

Sure, no problem.  I'm not sure how your setup will respond.  As long as you have a K-691 driver and a Xilica it should work fine as far as not hurting anything.  As for how it sounds?  Not sure where the crossover point is for the LaScala bin, what the time delay would be or how they will respond, but you can't hurt it as long as your connections are correct.  Here's Chris A's connections:

 

Chris A- "Note that the connections to your Xilica are:

 

Input 1: left channel from your preamp

Input 2: right channel from your preamp

Output 1: left channel bass bin output (to your amplifier)

Output 2: left channel HF compression driver "

Output 3: right channel bass bin output 

Output 4: right channel HF compression driver "

 

If it doesn't sound right Chris A can straighten it out from a raw reading using REW and the UMIK-1.

 

Trent

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13 hours ago, 32blownhemi said:

Trent! Would you please send them to me? E-mail is billwhoo@reagan.com I have La Scala bins with K-402 horns. I believe the settings are the same?   Thank You!  Bill

If that were the case, you could run an AA network on the jubilee...

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