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Kain

Critique this setup

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33 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

LOL was in a fun mood, not mad :)  

I've had a conversation with each of you at some point so hopefully it was clear I was having fun.

I knew it was a bit of tongue in cheek.  Nothing but love:wub: around here.:D

 

Bill

 

 

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Quick question...

 

My room is concrete all around. If my front two RF-7 III speakers are basically right in the front corners of the room (close the side wall but about 1 ft away from the back wall), will this cause any serious adverse effects on imaging or on the overall sound quality?

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If your room is concrete all around, I'm pretty sure you will have a significant slap echo.  I would look into adding some acoustic panels, rugs etc to help absorb some of the reflections.

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Yep, the room does currently have quite a bit of slap echo and I will be adding some acoustic panels with the new setup (current home theater is in the same room). However, anything on the RF-7 III corner placement question?

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Unless the RF 7III's are front ported the same rules of physic applies.  None of our speakers are such a much that they defy the laws of acoustic physic.  For some reason people want to place certain speakers to a God like status, it just is not so!  Once you adapt the laws, most of the rest become much easier to address.

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the closer to a wall the more the bass and midbass are amplified.  if they are toed in a bit it should be ok.  quality is limited by lack of absorption.  treatment even a small amt would help the most.  u wont get the full benefit of the rf7s until there are some panels in that room.  

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Will there be any timbre matching issues with having the RP-250S as side and back surround speakers and the KPT-801 as ceiling speakers?

 

Lastly, will there be new surround speakers to match the new RF-7 III and RC-64 III speakers or will you be required to get something from the existing Reference Premiere line (such as the RP-250S)?

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Any comments on the above? If I had to guess, the timbre matching shouldn't be an issue (but would still like to confirm) and there will be no new surround speakers to match the upcoming RF-7 III and RC-64 III.

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Another quick question...

 

I've planned the following:

 

Mains: 2 x RF-7 III

Center: 1 x RC-64 III

Side surrounds: 2 x RP-250S

Back surrounds: 2 x RP-250S

Ceiling speakers: 4 x KPT-801

 

Would you say I should also get the KPT-801 for the side and back surrounds to match the ceiling speakers or stick with the RP-250S for the side and back surrounds while having the KPT-801 for the ceiling speakers? I'm just guessing, but I would have thought having identical speakers for all the surrounds/ceiling speakers would be better (unless the RP-250S will be a better match for the RF-7 III and RC-64 III).

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On 7/16/2017 at 0:26 PM, Kain said:

This is what I'm planning for my new home theater. Current home theater setup is listed in my signature.

 

TV: Sony KD-65A1 (European version of US model Sony XBR-65A1E)

Ultra HD Blu-ray player: OPPO UDP-203

Processor: Anthem AVM 60

Amplifiers: ATI AT543NC (3 x 500 watts Class D for LCR) + ATI AT528NC (8 x 200 watts Class D for surrounds, back surrounds, and ceilings)

Mains: 2 x Klipsch RF-7 III

Center: 1 x Klipsch RC-64 III

Side surrounds: 2 x Klipsch RP-160M

Back surrounds: 2 x Klipsch RP-160M

Ceiling: 4 x Klipsch Pro KPT-801 (have a concrete ceiling and cannot use in-ceiling speakers)

Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive*

 

It may be time to go to a projector and Acoustically Transparent  screen, if you can afford it, and there is enough throw for a big image given the 15 foot length.

Advantages:

  • Size; try a 2.35:1 screen with common height for almost all aspect ratios.  'Scope looks great with these.  A screen about 10 feet true width (for 2.35:1) across your 12 foot width, with the seats, maybe, 10 feet away might look great.   All this would require careful planning.  Do you have an audio/video store near you in Dubai, or do you order online?  A brick and mortar store could help you experiment with projector distances, screen sizes, etc.
  • You can use 3 RF-7 111s, all behind the screen, for an exact match.
  • Hiding the RF-7 111s might seem to improve imaging.  Not being able to see the speakers sometimes does wonders.
  • You can put cheap and ugly (but acoustically effective) absorption on the front wall --it won't show.
  • A Seymour AT screen will hardly change the sound (1-2 dB on the high end). If you have an automatic room EQ in the pre-pro, it will fix that.
  • An all concrete room is going to need treatment.  Since the RF-7 111s are pretty much in the corners, put some absorption on the side walls, too ... not too much!  You can always add some diffusion as well.  Try the suggestions of @Chris A (on this forum) for corner horns and absorption, even though yours aren't corner horns.
  • Also, you probably don't need as much amplifier power as you specified, given the efficiency of RF7 111s.  Powered sub(s) can do the heavy lifting.  Spend any extra money on a projector and AT screen.

 

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On 9/4/2017 at 1:03 PM, garyrc said:

 

It may be time to go to a projector and Acoustically Transparent  screen, if you can afford it, and there is enough throw for a big image given the 15 foot length.

Advantages:

  • Size; try a 2.35:1 screen with common height for almost all aspect ratios.  'Scope looks great with these.  A screen about 10 feet true width (for 2.35:1) across your 12 foot width, with the seats, maybe, 10 feet away might look great.   All this would require careful planning.  Do you have an audio/video store near you in Dubai, or do you order online?  A brick and mortar store could help you experiment with projector distances, screen sizes, etc.
  • You can use 3 RF-7 111s, all behind the screen, for an exact match.
  • Hiding the RF-7 111s might seem to improve imaging.  Not being able to see the speakers sometimes does wonders.
  • You can put cheap and ugly (but acoustically effective) absorption on the front wall --it won't show.
  • A Seymour AT screen will hardly change the sound (1-2 dB on the high end). If you have an automatic room EQ in the pre-pro, it will fix that.
  • An all concrete room is going to need treatment.  Since the RF-7 111s are pretty much in the corners, put some absorption on the side walls, too ... not too much!  You can always add some diffusion as well.  Try the suggestions of @Chris A (on this forum) for corner horns and absorption, even though yours aren't corner horns.
  • Also, you probably don't need as much amplifier power as you specified, given the efficiency of RF7 111s.  Powered sub(s) can do the heavy lifting.  Spend any extra money on a projector and AT screen.

 

 

I really don't think I'll be able to go with a projector due to the layout of the room. Maybe I'll post some pictures of the room later on to give you a better idea. I probably could get a projector if I use a retractable screen but then I'll lose Dolby Vision as no current home theater projectors support it.

 

As for the amplifier power, I've heard from many people that the larger Klipsch speakers "wake up" with more power. Sound quality improves as well as other sound-specific qualities. Might as well provide them with ample power to ensure I get the best out of them. By the way, I am probably ditching those ATI class-D amplifiers and going with the ATI Signature Amplifiers such as the AT6007.

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On 9/5/2017 at 11:06 AM, Kain said:

 

I really don't think I'll be able to go with a projector due to the layout of the room. Maybe I'll post some pictures of the room later on to give you a better idea. I probably could get a projector if I use a retractable screen but then I'll lose Dolby Vision as no current home theater projectors support it.

 

As for the amplifier power, I've heard from many people that the larger Klipsch speakers "wake up" with more power. Sound quality improves as well as other sound-specific qualities. Might as well provide them with ample power to ensure I get the best out of them. By the way, I am probably ditching those ATI class-D amplifiers and going with the ATI Signature Amplifiers such as the AT6007.

 

The AT 6007 looks like it could be a great amplifier.  It's comforting that they rate the power @ 20 to 20K, with all channels operating -- that is very rare.

I've heard about the RF 7s "waking up" with more power.   I've heard they might present a slightly difficult impedance picture.  I don't know about the iiis, though.  In a room the size of yours, with the older RF7s, 300 watts ought to pump out about 115 dB on peaks, from a normal listening position (rather than at 1 meter, where nobody sits), which is 10 dB above the movie industry requirement for a main speaker (i.e., not a sub), on peaks at Reference level.   And, in the real world of HT, the sub(s) will do the heaviest lifting. 

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Thanks.

 

However, will an amp like the ATI Signature AT6000 out-class a RF-7 III/RC-64 III based setup? Is it possible to have amps that are "too good" for Klipsch speakers? The amps will costs more than the whole Klipsch speaker set.

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3 hours ago, Kain said:

Thanks.

 

However, will an amp like the ATI Signature AT6000 out-class a RF-7 III/RC-64 III based setup? Is it possible to have amps that are "too good" for Klipsch speakers? The amps will costs more than the whole Klipsch speaker set.

 

Interesting point. 

  • I doubt if an amp can be "too good," but an amp could be "inappropriate."   Whether you would be better off spending any money you would save by going to a cheaper amp then doing really good job of acoustically treating your room with absorption and diffusion, is another question.  Then again, several people on the forum may be able to tell you how to create very low cost absorption by making cloth covered house insulation, and diffusion with book shelves, pottery, and art objects. 
  • The old RF series was reputed to present a difficult impedance, which some amps handled better than others.  I don't know if that was really true.
  • At the same time, the old RF series had very high sensitivity, as I assume the new series has, making it important for the amp to function well at "the first watt" (actually from about 0.25 watt to about 10 watts) unlike some solid state amps in which there is much higher distortion at low power out, than there is at the very high average power needed by speakers much less sensitive than Klipsch.  People say this is not as frequent a problem as in the past, but a manufacturer like ATI might bee able to send you a graph of distortion at very low power.  If not, look for "Bench Tests" of the amps you are considering. 
  • The industry went through some weird artifactual gyrations in the past.  This problem is fixed now, but for a short time in the late 1970s, people noticed that amps with very low published distortion sometimes sounded worse than amps with somewhat higher distortion.  An amp with 0.0001% distortion might sound worse than one with 0.05 % distortion.  A few people wondered if people liked harmonic distortion (I never heard of anyone contending that people liked IM distortion).  It turned out that amp manufacturers were using so much feedback to "kill" distortion that the feedback caused an increase in a kind of distortion that was not routinely measured before, i..e., TIM, or transient intermodulation distortion.  PWK wrote a Dope from Hope article about this (c. 1977??), and suggested that the distortion be named after the man who "discovered" it.  The moral of the story is that there may be a number of kinds of distortion that we have not named or measured, but we can hear, so trust your ears.  Some brick and mortar stores will allow you to take a component home for a day or two to listen to it to see how it sounds with your other equipment in your room.  Needless to say, these are few and far between.  Others will let you bring in your other equipment and see how it mates with whatever you are considering buying.

Good luck!

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My low brow Oppo 203 setup is a prototype Quicksilver preamp into 4 home made [not by me] 203 SET amps, that drive stacked La Scala in a 2 channel configuration.  Oh I have a 55 SONY 4K TV, that I will sell cheap to a Alaskan so I can get a LG 55" OLED 4k [the OLED55B7A one with crappy audio]

The Oppo sometimes pixles up and freezes also...anyone else  notice this?  Last night while watching Intersteller I got the 
Cinavia error message, boy that was fun.

 

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