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Do I Need a Power Amp?


fuzzydog

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I don't believe receiver specs unless they are accompanied by a bench test with all channels driven. I think most receivers are heavily overrated and are not even close to putting out the claimed power. I think most people would benefit from the addition of an outboard amp, even if it is only for the front three channels. The only job the amp has is providing power, especially in dynamic peaks of HT. If you have the money to invest grab yourself a nice Emotiva XPA series amp and try it out. You have thirty days to try it and return it if you are not happy with the addition. If you keep it then you know you appreciate the additional power.

 

 

Tim

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I can only relate my own experience running the RF 7 II, RC 64 and the rest of the Atmos speakers similar to the OP.  I regularly turn up the volume to 0 db.  The total wattage of running the whole system rarely peaks over 450 watts during the loudest passages in movies.  The system has 11 speakers like to OP,  The SC 99 does require a pair of the surrounds be driven by an external amp.  The 450 watts peak of the system does include the outboard amp and avr...

 

The Denon has 11 channel of amplification and should not drop off like some cheaper avr's.  This avr can swing 175/205 into 6 and 4 ohm loads.  I look at my 11 lb. I Nuke 3000 which can swing around 2200 watts in actual use which is less than the 3000 watts in the spec.  It is possible to get a lot of watts out of these lighter weight units.

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Need? No.

Will it be beneficial yes.

Features & Specs

The headline feature on the X6300H is the eleven channels of built-in amplification, which uses an 11.2-channel platform with DHCT (Denon High Current Transistors) combined with discrete circuitry. Denon have managed to fit this additional amplification into a chassis that is smaller than the 9-channel X7200, whilst retaining that receiver's monolithic amplifier construction. The X6300 can deliver 205W into 6ohms with just one channel being driven but that drops to 140W into 8ohms with two channels being driven.
 

From another source

Getting back to the main plot and those 11 channels. The claimed power, if you read the marketing hype quickly, is 11 x 205W. In reality, that's one channel driving a 1kHz test tone into a low-load with 1 per cent distortion managing 205W. Into 8 ohm stereo speakers with a full-bandwidth 20Hz-20kHz signal and a more respectable 0.05 per cent distortion, Denon's figure drops down to 140W. With all channels driven, the maximum power per channel will be somewhat less again. 

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2 hours ago, teaman said:

I don't believe receiver specs unless they are accompanied by a bench test with all channels driven. I think most receivers are heavily overrated and are not even close to putting out the claimed power. ........................................

 

 

Tim

 

OTOH, his HT peaks should be 105 dB above an average of 85 dB in a movie.  105 dB out of RF-7s will be around 4 watts/channel and possibly 16 watts/channel if he sits over 2 meters away.  Since he has 11 channels operating, 16 watts/channel is waay high.  If his 140 wpc receiver only produces 50 wpc, all channels driven at a desirably infinitesimal distortion level, he is still in Land Of The Giant(s) Overkill.  

 

No, you do NOT need a power amp.  You may want one for its greater speaker control and lower distortions that are hard to measure and thus list on a spec sheet.   

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Fuzzydog, my point is not to argue about why I feel a separate amp is beneficial, what I can say is that Derrick posted that he regularly turns his receiver up to 0db, If I go anywhere under -20db my head almost explodes. I had a Yamaha RX-V2700 which supposedly put out 130 wpc into 8 ohms. When I A/B'd the receiver against my Sherbourn SR-120 which puts out a bench tested and real 125 watts across the front three and 75 watts for the other four channels there was no competition, leading me to quickly rid myself of the Yamaha. I have yet to hear any other receiver even come close to the punch my Sherbourn has. My volume dial goes to 100 and I have never run it past 25-30, literally my window glass shakes at that point. I have heard a lot of high power AVR's and only the Sherbourn has satisfied me. My receiver weighs in at 73lbs and is built like a tank. From the specs and reviews lately,  I would say the Anthem receivers are pretty darn good.

 

Instant gratification comes with a real power amp to run the mains. Like I posted earlier, if you try the Emotiva and do not feel 100% impressed, ship it back and pay nothing. There are plenty of used Emotiva amps on Ebay, Audiogon, etc. Other than a switching power supply switching on and off irregularly and covered under warranty I don't recall ever seeing an Emo amp go bad.

 

A pair of Emotiva UPA-1 mono block amps $400 on the Emotiva forum if you are interested. I have owned two pair of these and I have nothing but praise for the power output and low noise floor. Nice price too.  http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/49997/fs-upa-amps-mint-condition

 

Also, there is a Sherbourn power amp listed on US Audiomart for under $300. 200 wpc at 8 ohms, I have never used the speaker terminals but from what I hear they are straight forward and take up to 12 awg wire. It also offers balanced or unbalanced inputs so you can use XLR cables if you prefer....I prefer.  http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649363500-sherbourn-tst-2200-power-amplifier/images/1577372/

 

 

 

Tim

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1 hour ago, fuzzydog said:

I just worry that I'm under powering them.  I've read here and there that the RF-7s drop down near 4 ohms at low frequencies and require a lot of current to drive without clipping.

I am sure you can get by with the power you are giving them fuzzydog, many will tell you it is overkill. To each his own. I am not a know it all or end all opinionated and I believe the only person that can make that decision is you. I put 600 wpc Emotiva XPA-1 mono blocks into my KLF-30's even though they are rated for much lower power. My speakers absolutely come alive with that extra power.

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33 minutes ago, fuzzydog said:

I just got a lead on an Emotiva XPA 2 in SC with a year left on the warranty for $500.  I figure i'll give it a try and if I cant hear a difference i should be able to recoup my money pretty easily.

Great choice. I own four XPA-2's right now and sold another already. $500 is a fair price for an amp still under warranty. Keep us posted!

 

 

Tim

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Keep your eye open, there are 5 ch amp of 200 watts per channel for around $600.  I think you got a great avr and would be interest in your comparison of the with and without amp assessment.  I have a 5 channel amp and can't say it is better than the SC 35 or 99 in terms of power.  The avr will do 140 watts/ch and adding a 200 watt power amp does not change thing except for 1 to 2 db of extra power.  I like my Acurus amp but, I am glad that if it breaks or malfunction, I can't keep running without a glitch.

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16 hours ago, teaman said:

I don't believe receiver specs unless they are accompanied by a bench test with all channels driven. I think most receivers are heavily overrated and are not even close to putting out the claimed power. I think most people would benefit from the addition of an outboard amp, even if it is only for the front three channels. The only job the amp has is providing power, especially in dynamic peaks of HT. If you have the money to invest grab yourself a nice Emotiva XPA series amp and try it out. You have thirty days to try it and return it if you are not happy with the addition. If you keep it then you know you appreciate the additional power.

 

 

Tim

Sanity finally! Thanks teaman! I know of NO AVR the puts out 140 wpc times 11, or 10 or even 5 for that matter. If you can dig into the facts it may be two channels driven. I hate to bust a bubble but dems the facts.

 

So let's answer the question, Will any system improve with the addiction of external amps? In my best Jack Nicolson voice,  "You want the truth? You want the truth?" "You bamn right" it'll improve the sound of your system, both in HT and especially two channel.

 

Try it, you'll LOVE IT.

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20 minutes ago, novisnick said:

Sanity finally! Thanks teaman! I know of NO AVR the puts out 140 wpc times 11, or 10 or even 5 for that matter. If you can dig into the facts it may be two channels driven. I hate to bust a bubble but dems the facts.

 

So let's answer the question, Will any system improve with the addiction of external amps? In my best Jack Nicolson voice,  "You want the truth? You want the truth?" "You bamn right" it'll improve the sound of your system, both in HT and especially two channel.

 

Try it, you'll LOVE IT.

You have not been exposed to enough systems.  The Pioneer Elites will deliver.  I have been doing this for around 6 years and the HT is not better due to my power amp capable of 1or 2 db more output.  There are separate amps for the various channels in the Elite avr's.  Times have changed and avr topology has also changed.  

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7 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

You have not been exposed to enough systems.  The Pioneer Elites will deliver.  I have been doing this for around 6 years and the HT is not better due to my power amp capable of 1or 2 db more output.  There are separate amps for the various channels in the Elite avr's.  Times have changed and avr topology has also changed.  

Please attach the link with the specs of this AVR, Id love to read this. Im not a believer. Ive been involved with audio for over 30 years. Please show me.

 

Thanks

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