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Do I Need a Power Amp?


fuzzydog

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16 minutes ago, novisnick said:

Please attach the link with the specs of this AVR, Id love to read this. Im not a believer. Ive been involved with audio for over 30 years. Please show me.

 

Thanks

I already searched the receiver specs Nick, only the printed literature type, no bench tests or anything that breaks down the actual wattage. The fact that the receiver draws only 750w tells me it is not putting out anywhere near 140-205 wpc as they spec. My 600wpc monoblock Emotiva XPA-1 draws 1500w. That should tell you everything you need to know

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14 hours ago, fuzzydog said:

I think that would be an excellent choice.  Tons of dynamic headroom. 

 

I actually have that listing saved on A-gon.

 

Bill

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Here is a bench test of an one of my avr's.https://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-37-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

 

Now compare that to my five ch. 200 watt power amp.  the amp is not delivering me gobs of extra power to write home about.  It is possible for some avr's to deliver power comparable to a power amp.

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Since there are no published Denon X6300 test lets use the model above and below that for comparison.

 

I realize these models may be last years as in the X4200 and the X7200 is still considered the flagship even though one could argue that the X6300 technically is.

 

soundandvision is one of the few sites I could find that actually puts the amps on a test bench

 

X7200w

 

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x7200w-av-receiver-test-bench

 

 

This graph shows that the AVR-X7200W’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 146.6 watts and 1% distortion at 185.8 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 234.7 watts and 1% distortion at 265.5 watts.

Response from the multichannel input to the speaker output measures –0.04 dB at 10 Hz, –0.00 dB at 20 Hz, –0.14 dB at 20 kHz, and –3.62 dB at 50 kHz. THD+N from the CD input to the speaker output was less than 0.006% at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –93.91 dB left to right and –94.53 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.20 dBrA.

From the Dolby Digital input to the loudspeaker output, the left channel measures +0.01 dB at 20 Hz and –0.65 dB at 20 kHz. The center channel measures +0.01 dB at 20 Hz and –0.61 dB at 20 kHz, and the left surround channel measures +0.01 dB at 20 Hz and –0.62 dB at 20 kHz. From the Dolby Digital input to the line-level output, the LFE channel is +0.01 dB at 20 Hz when referenced to the level at 40 Hz and reaches the upper 3-dB down point at 118 Hz and the upper 6-dB down point at 121 Hz.—MJP

2 channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 146.6 watts
1% distortion at 185.8 watts

5 channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.3 watts
1% distortion at 138.0 watts

7 channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 113.7 watts
1% distortion at 124.0 watts

Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.04 dB at 10 Hz
–0.00 dB at 20 Hz
–0.06 dB at 20 kHz
–3.51 dB at 50 kHz

Analog frequency response with signal processing:
–0.81 dB at 10 Hz
–0.23 dB at 20 Hz
–0.42 dB at 20 kHz
–20.36 dB at 50 kHz

 

X4200

 

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

 

Test Bench

 

  0.1% THD 1.0% THD
Two Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads 124.3 watts 149.2 watts
Two Channels Continuously Driven, 4-Ohm Loads 215.9 watts 239.7 watts
Five Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads 94.6 watts 118.0 watts
Seven Channels Continuously Driven, 8-Ohm Loads 76.8 watts 91.9 watts

 

image: https://www.soundandvision.com/images/916denonrec.meas.jpg

916denonrec.meas.jpg

 

Audio: This graph shows the AVR-X4200W’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads. Measurements for THD+noise, crosstalk, signal-to-noise ratio, and analog/digital frequency response were all within expected performance parameters. Full details available at soundandvision.com.—MJP

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3 minutes ago, novisnick said:

Their speacs say 140 watts per channel 2 driven. Total of 850 watts for the unit. That leaves 63 watts each for the remaining 9 channels. 

 

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/SC-99#Power

 

 

Heck yea and it can do it while only consuming 370 watts. It's a virtual perpetual motion machine:)

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All this being said, lets also consider how laud we like our movies or Two Channel. Will the unit play and drive all of these channels? Of course it will! But we need to take into account the volume of the room, what if any acoustic treatments we've employed and at what db's we regularly listen at. A dedicated two channel amp for music and HT will take a load off of the amp incorporated in the AVR. Making for better dynamics and more powerful transitions. Ill let this go, I just want to help on the journey of better sound.

 

Hope y'all are having a great day!

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4 hours ago, teaman said:

Great choice. I own four XPA-2's right now and sold another already. $500 is a fair price for an amp still under warranty. Keep us posted!

 

 

Tim

Well i've decided to let the XPA-2 deal pass by while i keep my eye open for a multi-channel amp.  I'd hate to power my L&R with an 200 watt outboard and leave my center running off the receiver.  

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41 minutes ago, fuzzydog said:

Well i've decided to let the XPA-2 deal pass by while i keep my eye open for a multi-channel amp.  I'd hate to power my L&R with an 200 watt outboard and leave my center running off the receiver.  

I thought of posting that in my last post but I wasn't sure if you were concentrating more on two channel. An XPA-3, XPA-5, or amp of that nature would be a nice investment. Good luck with your search.

 

 

Tim

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One thing people don't take into account is all the channels are not putting out their max wattage all the time and at the same time.  Also, if the speakers are set to small, the power needs go way down.  As far as room size, I'm in a 43-4600 cu ft. space and the avr does fine.

 

We are all waiting to see what the OP thinks of the setup and if he is lacking power.  His opinion is the only one that really matters.

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I will sum it all up.  Under most conditions, good quality amplification will provide better dynamics, more punch/slam, and in many cases, better detail, all without breaking a sweat, than most flagship AVRs are capable of.  Even a 2 or 3 channel amp running the fronts and center will lighten the load from the AVR's remaining channels to provide better dynamics for them.

 

Your system, your $$$, you decide.  

 

Bill

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33 minutes ago, willland said:

I will sum it all up.  Under most conditions, good quality amplification will provide better dynamics, more punch/slam, and in many cases, better detail, all without breaking a sweat, than most flagship AVRs are capable of.  Even a 2 or 3 channel amp running the fronts and center will lighten the load from the AVR's remaining channels to provide better dynamics for them.

 

Your system, your $$$, you decide.  

 

Bill

Im a monoblocks kind of guy when it comes to a two channel setup or a multitasking room that also incorporates a HT system. What you say is so very true, so many companies ID offer 30 day return no questions asked, thats how I found Emotiva. About $40. To return a heavy XPA-5 (5 channel A/B amp. Small price to pay to find out weather or not you can live without the new sound. Still have my amps.

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3 minutes ago, fuzzydog said:

I wish I'd jumped before they went SMPS and raised their prices.

True! Im so happy with my tutorials. I have a monster from Emo! 

Their multichannel amps are killer, haven't heard the new ones. Hope the cast iron holds up for a decade or two!

IMG_0209.JPG

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2 hours ago, novisnick said:

True! Im so happy with my tutorials. I have a monster from Emo! 

Their multichannel amps are killer, haven't heard the new ones. Hope the cast iron holds up for a decade or two!

IMG_0209.JPG

That's awesome.  It's not even in your signature!  Just how many Emotiva amps do you have?!?

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I'm in the same boat right now but I haven't purchased an AVR/Pre-amp yet.  I'm considering the new Pioneer Elite flagship model since I can get it heavily discounted but I wouldn't want to put money into separate amps if I did so.  The AVR will do 7.2.2 while having the front L+R bi-amped so I'm not sure if I would gain a lot by adding a separate. On the other hand, I could do a cheaper AVR with pre-outs and run to a separate for the front channels and come out around the same price and may see gains?

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