Jump to content

What I Got Today!


Brac

Recommended Posts

Just now, CECAA850 said:

From the pictures I've seen I believe there's 3 sets of terminals on the bottom of the speaker.   If you pull the jumpers it MAY isolate the drivers but that's just a guess on my part. 

Interesting, except logically at least one terminal set would have to be connected to the internal crossover, assuming these speakers are equipped with one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

Interesting, except logically at least one terminal set would have to be connected to the internal crossover, assuming these speakers are equipped with one.

I just looked at the owners manual.   It shows tri amping as removing the jumpers and hooking one amp to each set.  I'll see if I can find info on the crossover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, CECAA850 said:

I just looked at the owners manual.   It shows tri amping as removing the jumpers and hooking one amp to each set.  I'll see if I can find info on the crossover.

Thanks.  IIRC, those who were bi-amping their two way speakers were not having to add any additional crossover circuitry, so I am struggling with why tri-amping would be any different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

Thanks.  IIRC, those who were bi-amping their two way speakers were not having to add any additional crossover circuitry, so I am struggling with why tri-amping would be any different.

I can't really wrap my head around how it works without looking at a crossover and I can't find a schematic or picture.  The owners manual shows tri amping and how to do it but not what's going on.  All I can figure is each driver is isolated on the board with its own individual components to high pass and low pass one individual driver.  Put the jumpers in and run them with a parallel signal.  Remove the jumpers and isolate each driver.  It wouldn't be a true tri amp because you'd still use a passive crossover per driver but that's all I could imagine. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

I can't really wrap my head around how it works without looking at a crossover and I can't find a schematic or picture.  The owners manual shows tri amping and how to do it but not what's going on.  All I can figure is each driver is isolated on the board with its own individual components to high pass and low pass one individual driver.  Put the jumpers in and run them with a parallel signal.  Remove the jumpers and isolate each driver.  It wouldn't be a true tri amp because you'd still use a passive crossover per driver but that's all I could imagine. 

Exactly.  Hence Thad's and my question(s).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've heard nothing but positive remarks for the Benchmarks. But to say they are the Best available? I'm surprised that statement hasn't been challenged. And I do bet they are killer but the "best" is not only impossible to prove but like most all hi-end 

products, best is in the eye/ear of the beholder. Nice rig by the way ---

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, oldtimer said:

Exactly.  Hence Thad's and my question(s).

Precisely. If all he's done is remove the jumpers he's running an electronic crossover which is then passed through a passive crossover and basically nullifying whatever the electronic crossover may have controlled. I've only touched a pair of these once, but they had a single set of cables going into the speaker with the jumpers in place and no electronic crossover, which means.... passive crossover in the speaker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No worries guys, of course I removed the crossovers ;)  But you could get some benefit in lowering intermodulation distortion by just limiting the frequencies up stream of the amps and removing the jumpers.  You'd just have a little higher distortion and less driver control.  Damping factor matters to me though.

 

3 hours ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

Precisely. If all he's done is remove the jumpers he's running an electronic crossover which is then passed through a passive crossover and basically nullifying whatever the electronic crossover may have controlled. I've only touched a pair of these once, but they had a single set of cables going into the speaker with the jumpers in place and no electronic crossover, which means.... passive crossover in the speaker.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's be objective here.  Find a better amp that has independently measured audio precision data.  Just look at these pretty graphs ;)

 

Benchmark measurements (MSRP $2999): :emotion-21::emotion-21:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements

1115BAHB2fig06.jpg

 

Mark Levinson measurements (MSRP $30000/pair): :emotion-45:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no536-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

617ML536fig05.jpg

 

Pass Labs measurements (MSRP $11000/pair): :emotion-45::emotion-45:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-xa605-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

114PA605fig05.jpg

 

5 hours ago, richieb said:

I've heard nothing but positive remarks for the Benchmarks. But to say they are the Best available? I'm surprised that statement hasn't been challenged. And I do bet they are killer but the "best" is not only impossible to prove but like most all hi-end 

products, best is in the eye/ear of the beholder. Nice rig by the way ---

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Etc, I am happy you enjoy the amps and you think they are the very best amps in the world. They may be. To post that the Emotiva forum jumped on you because you posted the graphs is kind of a half truth. You posting continuously about how crappy your XPR-1 amps were and how much better these new amps are just seemed a little over the top.

 

It would be no different than you coming into this Klipsch forum and posting about how crappy your Palladiums are now that you found these new xx speakers. It is just a bash on the product whose forum you are using. Do you think the Klipsch forum goers would all bow to you and say how crappy their speakers are...no, I think you would have plenty of people in the forum argue their point for why they enjoy Klipsch speakers. Not really different than what was said over there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Etc - I said I have heard nothing but good-great reviews for the Bendhmark line, I am not downgrading them at all. And I couldn't/wouldn't because I have never heard them. I do respect Morays ears and he is all in. I also respect Cluades ears and he is all in for the newest Hypex nCore of which I recently picked up a pair for a nice $$$. Jury is out - good, yep great, probably.

But best amps available today? Doubtful. But one never knows. And I'd bet a dollar to a donut they graph to perfection.

Where you kind of lose me is extolling the virtues of the graphs vs. those from Pass, Levinson, etc. Dont  know 'bout you but I have yet to sit down and use a graph to " listen" to music. How's about this - throw those damn graphs away and just tell us - 

How do the damn things Sound??! (I bet great)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never said the XPR-1's were crappy.   In fact, one of my posts called them good consumer grade amps/good value.  What I remember saying is they measure poorly compared to the Benchmarks (FACT NOT MY OPINION), but so do all other amps I've seen measurements for.  Cheap gear that has a good value to performance ratio gets too much praise anyways.  I'm tired of all the mainstream products built to a price point that lack leading edge performance.

 

I feel I am being pretty objective, as I was on that forum.  I even posted all the links and some graphs for those guys too.  At least I've owned and lived with both.  I've also researched both thoroughly unlike any of the commenters there (who don't bother to read or compare data or don't understand it, not sure).  The first few watts matter many times more than having 1000+ watts on tap you will never use, and better S/N ratio means more dynamic range period (unlike some of the nonsense posts I read in that thread claiming otherwise). 

 

Again, these are objective technical facts, not my opinion.  Everyone of my posts in that thread had sound engineering concepts in it.  Too bad only a few of the other posts did...

 

I feel I am being very objective by posting independent measurements and having owned and lived with both.  Way more objective than 99.99% of the posts I see on the internet, and 99.999999% of the posts on the Emotiva forum.  At least the Emotiva fans helped my resell value to where I only lost a little money :) 

 

Emotiva is a good consumer product, as is a lot of other consumer gear.  But none of the main stream gear can compete with the best pro audio gear because of objective technical reasons (e.g. factual) like the ones outlined here: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/19947905-the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-audio-products

 

I only wish I would have been wise enough to skip right to tri-amping and using 100% pro audio gear from the get go, but at least I learned a lot getting here.  I was being a cheap skate too, but at least I am fortunate and am getting the performance I am now.

 

Yes, I would do the same with speakers too, and of course I wouldn't be bashing, I'd just post graphs clearly showing why one was better than the other.  But to make it sound like it is purely my opinion or me bashing is BS from a technical standpoint.  You know I've owned both and have no motives whatsoever except to own the very best performing system possible.  I want to produce exactly what is in the recording with the lowest distortion possible.

 

If that's not your goal, ok with me, just skip over my posts (like the ones in that locked Emotiva thread) full of engineering facts and sound technical arguments.

 

11 minutes ago, teaman said:

Etc, I am happy you enjoy the amps and you think they are the very best amps in the world. They may be. To post that the Emotiva forum jumped on you because you posted the graphs is kind of a half truth. You posting continuously about how crappy your XPR-1 amps were and how much better these new amps are just seemed a little over the top.

 

It would be no different than you coming into this Klipsch forum and posting about how crappy your Palladiums are now that you found these new xx speakers. It is just a bash on the product whose forum you are using. Do you think the Klipsch forum goers would all bow to you and say how crappy their speakers are...no, I think you would have plenty of people in the forum argue their point for why they enjoy Klipsch speakers. Not really different than what was said over there.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Etc, I am not a blue Koolaid drinker and I know that Emotiva is not the be all end all when it comes to amplifiers and quality. To put your new Benchmark Pro amps to the test I would tell you to give the Bryston 4B series a listen. They are the best amps I have heard and they are priced in a fairly low price point....although costly due to the Emotivas. I just saw your post on the previous page where you posted along thee lines of the Emotiva dummies in their forum arguing about your amp comparisons. For one thing I try not to get involved with my amp is better than your amp stuff since hearing, equipment, musical taste, etc are all subjective. 

 

I honestly hope you are happy and I would love to hear the Benchmark amps but I couldn't care less about what they say on paper, it's more about what you hear. The fact that you are hearing details with these amps that you don't remember picking up on earlier tells me they are pretty good amps. That is usually an awakening for people. You know what you like when you hear it. 

 

Every month I read Stereophile, Sound & Vision, etc. and they rave over everything they review. I see them talk about these two way bookshelf speakers with a 5 inch woofer that sell for $50k and what a bargain they are and all that...well, I listen to metal, rock and pop and my taste in music is a perfect match for Klipsch speakers. I can assure you Queensryche's Operation Mindcrime is going to sound better blasting through my Heresies or KLF's compared directly to the bookshelf speakers despite how much nicer their Brazilian cocoa real wood veneer looks. 

 

Both forums, Klipsch and Emotiva have some pretty die hard supporters. Just remember when you drive your new Mustang onto the Chevy lot to bash the new Camaro there are plenty of loyal people on that lot and convincing them that your car is better isn't going to be the easiest thing to do. I was just calling attention to your post because you were making it sound like Emotiva forum goers were too stupid to accept the results of the Benchmark graphs.Once again I hope your Benchmark amps are all you ever wanted and more. To each his own!

 

 

Tim

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am totally fine being wrong, just show me better measurements ;)  THX, Benchmark and some other guys spent 10 years developing the amp, it is truly ground breaking from an engineering standpoint.  The distortion levels are (according to Benchmark, THX's VP of research, and any measurement I've seen) 10-100 times lower than any mass produced amp (obviously there must be laboratory grade amps that have a similar noise floor that I couldn't afford anyways).  I initially thought it was BS, but kept searching for Audio Precision data for two weeks, and then gave up and purchase my initial two late last year.

 

But to answer your question, the AHB2 amps just amplify what is there in a very very clear fashion and controls my drivers so well it is jaw dropping.  Even bass from driving the 3 9.5" woofers (2.6 ohms) is stunning in the tri-amp setup and I've heard things the XPR-2 I had used before couldn't do.

 

I mean I was in tears listening to some of the tracks as I could hear things that weren't there before.  Sound comes out of blackness; you can hear artist breath, and sound decays as if you were in the room with the performers (on well recorded audiophile tracks anyways).  If you have a consumer grade processor upstream though, you may not experience the full dynamic range the AHB2 has to offer.

 

I couldn't believe the performance of the AHB2 (even after owning two of them), so I bought a Benchmark DAC3 DX and sold my Oppo HA-1.  I use it to drive my bookshelf speakers using one of the used AHB2's I initially bought before going all out.  Wow.  Even with passive XO's I can hear all kinds of detail and the headphone amp in the DAC3 is crystal clear.  My Palladium bookshelves are so clear now, it is crazy.  Not quite as good as tri-amping, but dang close.

 

37 minutes ago, richieb said:

Etc - I said I have heard nothing but good-great reviews for the Bendhmark line, I am not downgrading them at all. And I couldn't/wouldn't because I have never heard them. I do respect Morays ears and he is all in. I also respect Cluades ears and he is all in for the newest Hypex nCore of which I recently picked up a pair for a nice $$$. Jury is out - good, yep great, probably.

But best amps available today? Doubtful. But one never knows. And I'd bet a dollar to a donut they graph to perfection.

Where you kind of lose me is extolling the virtues of the graphs vs. those from Pass, Levinson, etc. Dont  know 'bout you but I have yet to sit down and use a graph to " listen" to music. How's about this - throw those damn graphs away and just tell us - 

How do the damn things Sound??! (I bet great)

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Measurements can definitely give you a good idea of performance.  I hear what you are saying though, and see why you think that.  I seldom see anyone posting graphs of what things do at low listening levels or low wattages.  Most manufactures hide this from you cause they use shoddy low voltage volume controls, and use amps with lots of distortion at low listening levels.

 

Once I found the AHB2 after watching the video below, I was amazed to see Benchmark took the time to post actual audio precision measurements in the manual.  They are truly a company seeking technical excellence (and yes in my experience this always means stellar sound).

 

I totally agree about Stereophile, but after seeing them review the AHB2, they really surprised me..

 

 

7 minutes ago, teaman said:

I honestly hope you are happy and I would love to hear the Benchmark amps but I couldn't care less about what they say on paper, it's more about what you hear. The fact that you are hearing details with these amps that you don't remember picking up on earlier tells me they are pretty good amps. That is usually an awakening for people. You know what you like when you hear it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey etc6849, I really am enjoying my Sennheiser HD-599 headphones. I cannot believe how much detail I hear in these cans. I have used lots of headphones over the years but these are right up there among the best I have heard. Even more amazing that they only cost me $100 on sale. They are easy to drive and the detail is amazing. I am hearing breaths being taken between verses that I never even knew existed. Hearing the fingers sliding up and down the fret board makes it feel like the musicians are in my room. The cymbal crashes are startling and on Pink Floyd's Momentary Lapse of Reason I turned to see if my roof was leaking when the rain started falling inside my head! The entire illusion just seems so unreal, or surreal? I mean when I am immersed in sound in the dark room I get kind of creeped out thinking that the band is right there watching me!

 

This experience has driven me to stop listening to my amps and speakers, the clarity sucks in a large room with tile floors. I am going to toss out or maybe donate to the Salvation Army this hoard of audio equipment I now know I really don't need.

 

Okay, okay, I am just F'ing with you, all in good fun. But I think you see where I am going with it. There is always a better experience to be had, there is always something more. This hobby in general is a never ending journey. Enjoy the ride and take it all in, life is too short to get all hung up about the small stuff. All joking side, I hope the amps are all you ever wanted. 

 

Also, I am only half joking about the headphones. Everything I hear and feel is real, the BS part is that I am dumping all my gear....lol. Keep on rockin!

 

 

Tim

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And while we're at it if indeed they are what you and others say then compared to Pass Labs gear, Levinson, etc. they would be considered a bargain in today's hi-end market. Pass Labs new monos, depending on circuit class and power can easily fetch into the 10's of thousands. And now that price has been brought in they are a bargain when compared to the big Mac gear. But lets not start the Mac vs. Pass vs. Levinson vs. etc. debate. That's a rabbit hole one never emerges from.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is why I tri-amped 2-3 years ago.  I bought some Sennheiser HD-800's on a flash sale and heard things I hadn't heard from the Emotiva and Palladium system.  I researched here and found that tri-amping could bring a lot of this clarity to my speakers.  Thanks to some wise folks here (ChrisA and DrWho) I tried it.

 

Then after that, on a whim I bypassed my XMC-1 and tried feeding the Xilica XD4080 directly via AES from a pro audio soundcard and things sounded even better with only a single D/A conversion (versus D/A ->A/D->D/A) and more processing power.  I am finally to where I prefer my setup again to any headphone I've ever heard, but headphones are much cheaper.

 

21 minutes ago, teaman said:

This experience has driven me to stop listening to my amps and speakers, the clarity sucks in a large room with tile floors. I am going to toss out or maybe donate to the Salvation Army this hoard of audio equipment I now know I really don't need.

 

Okay, okay, I am just F'ing with you, all in good fun. But I think you see where I am going with it. There is always a better experience to be had, there is always something more. This hobby in general is a never ending journey. Enjoy the ride and take it all in, life is too short to get all hung up about the small stuff. All joking side, I hope the amps are all you ever wanted. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...