RoboKlipsch Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Timbre match on surrounds wont be an issue within klipsch. Its more a preference. If you are willing to replace the inwalls and move them then you wont have to compromise at all. In wall would be better but may limit your ability to toe and angle them which may be needed....or....test enough beforehand and go in wall again. Its very easy to find the right spots. I used a stack of boxes and moved them around to test....added removed a box to see it will be obvious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said: Timbre match on surrounds wont be an issue within klipsch. Its more a preference. If you are willing to replace the inwalls and move them then you wont have to compromise at all. In wall would be better but may limit your ability to toe and angle them which may be needed....or....test enough beforehand and go in wall again. Its very easy to find the right spots. I used a stack of boxes and moved them around to test....added removed a box to see it will be obvious. Omg this is so darn confusing, meaning do I stay with the inwalls or not. Ugg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Well there are tradeoffs. On wall gives you a lot more flexibility especially when you aren't exactly sure where they should go. You can move them, you can toe them in, you can tile them up and down. That flexibility is nice. Also, mounting them is easy, typically putting them on a shelf or stand, or mounting using a bracket or keyhole mount. In wall looks a lot better, and gives you back that space where it sticks out say, a foot from the wall. So in your case, if you really don't want to move that couch forward say 3 feet, in walls for the backs is beneficial. BUT, you'll want to be sure you put them in the right spots...right height, right position left and right on the wall. Surrounds are important speakers. But they are not as important as the front speakers or center. You could keep using your polks, and they would likely work fine as long as their sensitivity isn't so low that they can't be calibrated with the fronts i.e., if those in walls have a sensitivity of say 85db, that might be an issue. At 90 or more, they are fine. Either way you want to test out positions. You put the speakers on boxes or a ladder or platform and try different heights and positions until they are right. The standards are a good starting point, but in every room you must test or you are risking a hit/miss situation where you may not like the result. Don't stress about it you can even use your existing in walls. If you are willing to move them it will produce big dividends. If you want different back surrounds that's fine too, whether in wall or on wall. What do you want? That's the question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 4 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said: Well there are tradeoffs. On wall gives you a lot more flexibility especially when you aren't exactly sure where they should go. You can move them, you can toe them in, you can tile them up and down. That flexibility is nice. Also, mounting them is easy, typically putting them on a shelf or stand, or mounting using a bracket or keyhole mount. In wall looks a lot better, and gives you back that space where it sticks out say, a foot from the wall. So in your case, if you really don't want to move that couch forward say 3 feet, in walls for the backs is beneficial. BUT, you'll want to be sure you put them in the right spots...right height, right position left and right on the wall. Surrounds are important speakers. But they are not as important as the front speakers or center. You could keep using your polks, and they would likely work fine as long as their sensitivity isn't so low that they can't be calibrated with the fronts i.e., if those in walls have a sensitivity of say 85db, that might be an issue. At 90 or more, they are fine. Either way you want to test out positions. You put the speakers on boxes or a ladder or platform and try different heights and positions until they are right. The standards are a good starting point, but in every room you must test or you are risking a hit/miss situation where you may not like the result. Don't stress about it you can even use your existing in walls. If you are willing to move them it will produce big dividends. If you want different back surrounds that's fine too, whether in wall or on wall. What do you want? That's the question. So took everything apart today and played around a little bit, including pulling out the couch 2 feet, which was actually quite nice. Bought gravity on itunes and watched the first twenty minutes. Watched the scene in Wall*E where they are flying around in space kinda dancing. But I really couldn't hear those sides or the back....at least not how I am picturing it in my head. I couldn't close my eyes and pinpoint where they were flying, ya know? Its hard to toe in those in walls, you can see them balancing on boardgames. To move them around is a pain. And of course I had some little Klipsch bookshelf speakers that I gave to my friend last week...could've bloody used them today!! I bit the final bullet and ordered 4 RP-250s to really complete the set up. Phew its a lot of money in a little amount of time but I THINK I know what I want. I'm tired of wanting it to be "right" and getting disappointed when it isnt. Lets hope I did the right darn thing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 I have a feeling they will be a significant improvement over your current surrounds. Don't forget to rerun your room calibration as the Klipsch will likely be much more efficient than your current surrounds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 15 minutes ago, Youthman said: I have a feeling they will be a significant improvement over your current surrounds. Don't forget to rerun your room calibration as the Klipsch will likely be much more efficient than your current surrounds. I feel like I am running it everyday lol. Its nice that it does that though, the automatic YPAC or whatever its called on my Yamaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 On 8/5/2017 at 10:07 PM, RoboKlipsch said: If i offered to ship 2 acoustic panels to every Klipsch member in the color they prefer for free and if they dont like them return them. ...i think 98% would keep them. They are that important. Question: What acoustic panels do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Congrats on getting the surrounds. Use the diagram that was provided earlier as a basic setup tutorial (Dolby's site, home theater, shows a 7.1 setup if you don't see it). The back surrounds likely need to be closer together. If you get some more speaker wire, you can lengthen those wires coming from the wall to move them wherever you want. I know it's a pain, we all have gone through this to get the setup we want. So you've noticed SOME improvement but not a lot. I would expect exactly that. The side surrounds at the ceiling is what is really killing it now. The back surrounds should be closer together (I think) but that's not likely the big problem. The Bose are too high up to give you the "sweeping" sound you want. Buy some cheap wire if you don't have it, and pull those bose off the wall, and add some wire and try out spots just above ear height. It will be night and day imo. Remember, you'll have the option to wall mount them all, or even use stands if you prefer or find that a location off the wall is a bit better. I think on the wall will work well for all of them. Speaker position/room layout Treatment to the first reflections Then final calibration You've got your awesome equipment on order, you just need to work on the setup The cheapest acoustic panels I have found made by pros came from -- http://www.mixmasteracoustics.com They are inexpensive, don't charge for delivery, and usually have a $25 off coupon for a first purchase. Acoustimac is another excellent source, as is GIK acoustics. If you want to build your own, I have other ideas for you. But for your first couple panels it makes sense to buy them and see what they should look, feel like etc. Acoustic treatment is a whole subject requiring a lot of discussion but the basic gist is, you need panels where reflections are strong. This tends to be from the front L, C and R speakers. So someone takes a mirror....yes a hand mirror, and holds it on the left wall roughly half-way between the central listening position, and the speaker itself. The mirror is moved until at the seated position, you "see" that speaker in the mirror. The mirror is at the reflection point for that speaker at that seat. You do this for the L, C and R speakers, and then note where they are on the walls. You can often cover all 3 speakers on the side with one 2x4 (foot) panel. Sometimes it takes 2 per side. You would do the same for the right side. Yes, you need a helper for this, you can't hold the mirror and sit at the same time. I use a light of some sort on the speaker to help make finding it easier in the mirror. The typical first reflection problem points are on the side walls, from the front speakers. In some rooms, in some setups, you need panels elsewhere. Because of how close you may sit to the back wall, panels on the back wall may help absorb reflections that are close (that back wall) and thereby reduce the "noise" and improve the clarity of all the speakers. So again a bit of legwork to discover what you may need is critical here. From that info you can see why finding the proper seating position and speaker position needs to be done first, then absorption can be done based upon the layout. it doesn't hurt to buy a few panels as you will definitely use them, but what color, what size, how many, are all easy to discern but take some work. I would recommend 4" panels if in the room there will only be a few, you cannot have too much 4" absorption (you can, but that's a ton of panels). 2" panels are a bit cheaper and will also work. The difference is how low it absorbs. At 2" panels, it goes down to roughly 250hz and a bit lower but the abosrption is low down below 250. a 4" panel will get you closer to 100hz, with a bit under that too. It's gonna work and work well. It is a bit frustrating moving things around I know, but it WILL work. Keep tweaking, as much as you can stand to listen and tweak the positions. They will dial in and quickly you'll say -- "THAT'S IT!" because it either sounds incredible, or you simply cannot improve it. Since you are going with on-walls, you'll have the ability to fine tune their position and even change it, as you modify your room. it's like so many things, you know a little bit about something, then you decide to look into making it better, and discover a whole world of acoustics, physics and a hobby that can suck up your free time even moreso than football 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 On 8/4/2017 at 1:01 PM, Youthman said: Glad to help. If you are not dead set on having RS-62, the RS-52 or RP-250s will work just fine. Although I have not heard any of the Reference Premiere Speakers, they seem to be well received by those that have purchased them. I have no experience with inwalls. Unfortunately, your room and mine are setup with seating against the back wall (in my room it's the 2nd row). If at all possible, I would encourage you to move the seating foward to directly beside your side surrounds or no more than 10 degrees in front of them. This diagram should help Here was that chart. Note that there are angles shown here, that is really a critical starting point for setup. You can see why the couch needs to be forward. There is no way to have side surrounds where the surrounds are horizontal to your ears (or a little behind)...and have back surrounds. The back surrounds are denoting angles that should be used in order to optimize them....these angles are critical for that "sweep" we all seek out. Given the angles, they are a starting point, and because of your room limitations and other aesthetics you want, you won't follow this exactly, but give it a shot. Looking at the diagram and your setup, you may very well have those angles for the back surrounds correct. Mine are much further behind my couch (about 9 feet), so the angle comes out different in my room. You're on the track to awesomeness, take your time, don't get frustrated, if it gets annoying just stop for a day or so and do something else. The RP speakers are truly magnificent. You will be blown away and thrilled with what they do versus the Bose and Polk Inwalls. If you look back up at YOUTHMAN's photo of the back of his theater, he has 4 RS62s setup for surround duty. Yours will look something like his when complete. We haven't even discussed subwoofers, have we? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 46 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said: If you look back up at YOUTHMAN's photo of the back of his theater, he has 4 RS62s setup for surround duty. Yours will look something like his when complete. Only better because hopefully yours will be able to be mounted lower than mine. LOL. My ceilings are 10' so that tells you how high the surround back speakers are mounted (not ideal but is what I had to work with). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 46 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said: We haven't even discussed subwoofers, have we? I'm dying! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 1 hour ago, RoboKlipsch said: The side surrounds at the ceiling is what is really killing it now. The back surrounds should be closer together (I think) but that's not likely the big problem. The Bose are too high up to give you the "sweeping" sound you want. Buy some cheap wire if you don't have it, and pull those bose off the wall, and add some wire and try out spots just above ear height. It will be night and day imo. Remember, you'll have the option to wall mount them all, or even use stands if you prefer or find that a location off the wall is a bit better. I think on the wall will work well for all of them. I think its really hard to see but I did pull the bose of the walls and popped the polks out as well. Put the sides basically horizontal to my ear but a little above. I don't know if something is wrong with me lol but I noticed only some difference. I will say its a massive pain in the neck to move those polks at an angle because they keep falling over. And I am going to test that first 20minutes of gravity again. I get so confused on what setting to put the receiver on, I don't think I had it set to 7.1, I think it was 5.1. I am forever messing around with all the different options (movie "action" movie "thriller"...all choices), it kind of gets irritating because I don't know what the heck I am doing lolol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 36 minutes ago, Youthman said: I'm dying! Do we not see the brand new 115W?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 1 hour ago, RoboKlipsch said: I would recommend 4" panels if in the room there will only be a few, you cannot have too much 4" absorption (you can, but that's a ton of panels). 2" panels are a bit cheaper and will also work. The difference is how low it absorbs. At 2" panels, it goes down to roughly 250hz and a bit lower but the abosrption is low down below 250. a 4" panel will get you closer to 100hz, with a bit under that too. If you were telling me this face to face you would see a complete blank stare...and then probably just do it yourself. Is there a link to a tutorial you like explaining this? Im a little lost (Lol I hope I'm not getting on everyones nerves) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 1 hour ago, RoboKlipsch said: Acoustic treatment is a whole subject requiring a lot of discussion but the basic gist is, you need panels where reflections are strong. This tends to be from the front L, C and R speakers. So someone takes a mirror....yes a hand mirror, and holds it on the left wall roughly half-way between the central listening position, and the speaker itself. The mirror is moved until at the seated position, you "see" that speaker in the mirror. The mirror is at the reflection point for that speaker at that seat. You do this for the L, C and R speakers, and then note where they are on the walls. You can often cover all 3 speakers on the side with one 2x4 (foot) panel. Sometimes it takes 2 per side. You would do the same for the right side. Yes, you need a helper for this, you can't hold the mirror and sit at the same time. I use a light of some sort on the speaker to help make finding it easier in the mirror. I keep the mirror flat on the wall, right? THis I can do. The right wall will be a problem because of the poster boxes there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, supercooldude said: Do we not see the brand new 115W?? Oh yeah! Sorry...I've slept since then. 3 minutes ago, supercooldude said: Is there a link to a tutorial you like explaining this? Im a little lost (Lol I hope I'm not getting on everyones nerves) Robo, shouldn't we help him get his speakers setup before diving into acoustic treatments? Don't want to completely overwhelm this supercooldude. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Just now, Youthman said: Robo, shouldn't we help him get his speakers setup before diving into acoustic treatments? Don't want to completely overwhelm this supercooldude. *Tries to look innocent and helpless* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 5 minutes ago, supercooldude said: (Lol I hope I'm not getting on everyones nerves) Not at all. You will know if you do because we will just begin to flag you and issue warning points. LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 8, 2017 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2017 Just now, supercooldude said: *Tries to look innocent and helpless* I think it's working... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercooldude Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Just now, Youthman said: Not at all. You will know if you do because we will just begin to flag you and issue warning points. LOL Ok thank god, when I built the ghostbusters proton pack the guys on that forum were ruthless to noobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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