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Rear speaker placement *manically laughs*

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21 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

UPDATE PLEASE!  You've been quiet for over a week I know that means you're deep into it and loving every minute.....

 

 

Man oh man its been a very big learning experience, THATS for sure.  I am now actually paying attention to what audio tracks come with the blu ray or the itunes movies. It's a little embarrassing to admit how totally ignorant I was/am.  I was happily only buying iTunes movies BUT now I know the most they can do is 5.1, so I have gone back to buying blu rays...not something I thought I would ever do.

 

The thing to show off the the system is the very opening paramount logo of Transformers Dark of the Moon. and the highway chase scene.  But that is strictly using the blu ray NOT iTunes.  I am very tempted to now buy the iTunes (probably wait until the 5th one comes out and hopefully get a package deal) and really hear what the difference is.  Also we watched War of the Worlds the other day (I love that movie) and it sounded NOICE!  Especially the lightning storm at the beginning. And we are about to watch Batman vs. Superman.

 

Another thing I would like to do (and hopefully will follow through) is buy the gravity blu ray and compare (and maybe list) speaker and time specific effects of that first 20 minutes.  Just so when people are testing their system they know what to look and listen for.  I know I keep thinking "I think this should be behind me" but it isnt.

 

And really I don't know the difference between DTS-HD and 7.1.  I don't know if something that is playing in 5.1 can be split into 7.1 by the receiver.  

 

We are going to have the ceiling made all one leveled height and soundproof it so I am also wondering if I shouldn't get ceiling speakers put in for  Dolby Atmos before everything is all sealed up.  I also don't know if my ceiling is too low for that.  I also don't know if just the Klipsch Reference in ceiling speakers would be good for that.  Or get those cool angled Atmos speakers BUT again the is the ceiling too low for that?  Uggggggggg...

 

See how much I don't know! 

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RoboKlipsch    365

Awesome!

 

When I mentioned Transformers, I was actually thinking of the intro with the Stars, my young son loves that and laughs every time.

Really, every action movie has some great sweeping surround, it's just not usually as simple as put in X and play track Y, but there are some of those.

 

WOW is one of the very best for surround sound, in fact really subwoofers even moreso, one of my top hits

i've been collecting the "best" of surround sound home theater in blu-ray form for many months now

 

all i can tell you is a friend endlessly argues (with no backup at all) that he thinks streaming is as good as blu-ray.  I laugh and remind him, um yeah but you still are using old school connections that DON'T EVEN ALLOW for Master Audio HD tracks...I think he is using the S-cable still.  Is that what they're called I don't even remember it's so outdated....Blu-Ray beats any and all broadcast forms imo, even 4K.  I have a 4K TV and high end broadcast, and even streaming 4k from Netflix or Amazon doesn't cut it.  Blu-Ray is SUPERIOR to that still imo.  

 

Bottom line is COMPRESSION, there is no way they can ever send us all the data in a blu-ray streaming and do so for everyone across the country at a reasonable cost....thus they compress the SXXX out of everything and often make it suck.  As one friend here at the forum puts it, they even go so far as to lop off the top and bottom end of many movies....you'll "know" what a movie should sound like, put on your system and laugh and say wait are the subs on?  Yes?  Oh it's another sxxx recording.

 

Truth is...as you are learning (and I am too, very much) that what you heard BEFORE was sxxx, not now.  Now the quality of your playback is good enough that you can tell when something sucks, or is subpar.  Even worse, as someone growing up in the 80's and 90's, most music then and before was recorded rather poorly....and thus, when you play it back in your system, it may kind of suck!  And then you'll hear a remastered version in 5.1 or 7.1 and you'll freak going....ah my system is just fine it's the recording that sucks.  That whole concept of moving up the quality of your playback is very, very exciting and something few people understand or bother to do.  People watch what, on average 4+ hours of TV a day but don't bother to calibrate the sound...or the picture?  Yuck.  Lazy and uninformed....

 

I've owned Gravity for a while on blu-ray and no matter what else you do, for $9 on Amazon, get it, it's the best pinpoint sound recording to date imo.  However having said that, the sound quality is still decent enough coming through cable or streaming to get the effect.  I saw Gravity in the IMAX theater in 3D, a very empty theater (the only way I do it), and then I watched it at home on cable, then on blu-ray multiple times, I know that track!  

 

-- In the theater, IMAX tuned as good as can be, me sitting in the middle.  The sound in a theater is massive, much more powerful sounding in a big theater.  But that first 20 minutes consists of mostly talk, with some music from Clooney's radio.  That intro starts it, where there's a sizzling shimmering tone that is the same tone they use later when the ISS is breaking up.  First remember this -- although you may have a 7.1 system, and the theater may have also, really the way these are recorded is to sound like a perfect 5.1 system, even if using 7.1.  So there were really only 4 places to listen to (this is all, non-Atmos mind you) -- front left, front right, back left, and back right.  Now, I'm talking sitting probably 30 or 40 feet from the back surrounds.  YET during the movie, it sounded like someone in the row behind me was talking, almost whispering directly in my ear.  THAT good.  And at home it is the same.  4 precise points, although believe it or not, the back left is not used much in this instance, has much to do with the position of the shuttle, earth and our viewpoint.  Believe it or not -- you likely wouldn't know this -- that first 12 minutes or so right up until the ISS explodes is actually ONE CONTINUOUS SHOT.  It wasn't actually shot that way of course, but watch it again and you'll see it...they spent I think 3 years filming this movie and that intro was the Oscar winner.  NOW...to complicate it further, I believe that Gravity was one of the first Atmos movies and certainly the first to win an Oscar.  So with an Atmos system, there is even more to consider as the height was carefully controlled in this movie relative to the viewing.  Anyway...get the blu-ray already!  You've been thinking about that too long, if you don't have Amazon Prime let me know I'll send you a copy and you can decide if it's worth sending me $9 :)

 

I found the first four transformer movies on ebay for I think $16 total....bought a "set" that had 3 of the 4 for $12...and had happened somehow to buy the other one for $4 elsewhere before that, making a complete set.  That's how to get sets or larger lots of blurays...get them on ebay.  But singles are often as cheap on amazon when shipping is included.

 

A few other top action titles that show off surround:

 

> Edge of Tomorrow

> Twister

> Battleship

> Mad Max Fury Road

> For an interesting and cheap 7.1 "music" blu-ray, the Doors Movie.  Amazing to hear those older songs mastered into 7.1

> 300

> Olympus has Fallen / London has Fallen

> Kill Bill Vol 1 and 2

 

Plenty more if you want recommendations.  

 

 

As for DTS vs Dolby, they are two COMPANIES, and have built differing codecs for how their sound is coded and then decoded.  In general, DTS was WAY better years ago, and today imo is still a bit better.  So given the choice, DTS is a slightly better coding, but when it comes to Master Audio, I doubt there's much difference you can hear, both are uncompressed.

 

OK the ceiling....all the answers are already here in this forum.  Search a bit or ask about it, but each question you have is a thread here that's been discussed recently.  Many people asking about what is needed for Atmos -- you need to google the manual and read it - I have, and I doubt I'll ever get it!  But reading it told me the answers to most of what you're asking.  14 foot ceiling is their ideal spec, but it works in most ceilings.  In ceiling is considered by those discussing it here (and MLO, who sells it) to be superior for effect.  Most have said that 2 speakers for Atmos is not enough, you want more.  4 perhaps.  As I had mentioned before, make sure if SOUNDPROOFING that it will achieve the desired effect.  Sound control within the room to sound good is easy...soundproofing to keep sound from leaving the room is much, much more difficult and expensive, but is done frequently.  

 

Believe it or not -- the very best in surround sound still comes from games.  XBOX or PS4 will demonstrate this well, but omg some games the sound is insanely impressive, and immersive.  Most movies assume the viewer is looking at the screen and the action...some games do too.  But others assume more that you are "in" the game, so that where you sit is in the battlefield, or in the environment.  This causes there to be much more obvious and severe surround sound that can be absolutely astounding.  Battlefield, Call of Duty, Steep, Far Cry, Grand Theft Auto are but a few of the truly remarkable ones.

 

You know your surround sound is working well when you pause it, or crinckle your ear thinking either someone is calling you or you heard a sound elsewhere in the house..and really it was in the recording.  Getting "fooled" is the very best compliment you can give your system.  Same goes for a sub and integration....I blindfold someone and bring them into either theater and play anything they want, they could never, ever tell where the subs are, not even close.  Really well integrated systems are seamless and amazing.  You're already there my friend!   

 

What is your real name....let me know or PM me, I'm curious...and my name is Rob :)

 

 

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RoboKlipsch    365

Forgot to add Fight Club, one of my all-time favorites and one that few really realize is so good

 

A lot of people love music, a lot love HT, some love both.  This movie (I'm throwing it in for a partial watch) is the best combination of both possibly ever.  Not that the music is better than other movies but only a few times have soundtracks so closely mirrored the personalities in the movie.  IMO one of the very best movies made actually.  

 

I dare you, in fact I actually caution you NOT to, try and watch the plane crash scene at full reference.  I have not allowed myself to do it yet.  I'm not afraid at all for the system itself, but me.  It's beyond frightening and ear-shattering.   I still consider it one of the most impressive HT moments.

 

The entire movie however has a running Chemical Brothers soundtrack that is incredible in the right room.  

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5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

Awesome!

 

When I mentioned Transformers, I was actually thinking of the intro with the Stars, my young son loves that and laughs every time.

Really, every action movie has some great sweeping surround, it's just not usually as simple as put in X and play track Y, but there are some of those.

 

Oh yeah, those stars are absolutely the best part, I think we have listened to that like 20 times already if not more.

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

WOW is one of the very best for surround sound, in fact really subwoofers even moreso, one of my top hits

i've been collecting the "best" of surround sound home theater in blu-ray form for many months now

 

I have always loved that movie, the lightning storm sounded fantastic!

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

all i can tell you is a friend endlessly argues (with no backup at all) that he thinks streaming is as good as blu-ray.  I laugh and remind him, um yeah but you still are using old school connections that DON'T EVEN ALLOW for Master Audio HD tracks...I think he is using the S-cable still.  Is that what they're called I don't even remember it's so outdated....Blu-Ray beats any and all broadcast forms imo, even 4K.  I have a 4K TV and high end broadcast, and even streaming 4k from Netflix or Amazon doesn't cut it.  Blu-Ray is SUPERIOR to that still imo.  

 

Thats kinda funny and kinda irritating.  I have literally given away like 700 DVDs because I either had them on blu ray, on iTunes, or haven't watched them like EVER or mayyybe once.  And then I though "perfect now I will just get everything on iTunes and save the shelf space" but now I am realizing blu ray is better.  Sigh.

 

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

Bottom line is COMPRESSION, there is no way they can ever send us all the data in a blu-ray streaming and do so for everyone across the country at a reasonable cost....thus they compress the SXXX out of everything and often make it suck.  As one friend here at the forum puts it, they even go so far as to lop off the top and bottom end of many movies....you'll "know" what a movie should sound like, put on your system and laugh and say wait are the subs on?  Yes?  Oh it's another sxxx recording.

 

I think the very last piece of the puzzle is the receiver.  I need to upgrade it.  I had an very good opportunity to get a Marantz, but money ran out and it wasn't the lastest technology which also gave me pause.  I do think I will start a thread on receivers, I have been starting to research but its just so much overwhelming information I need to sit, read and take notes like I would in a class!

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

Truth is...as you are learning (and I am too, very much) that what you heard BEFORE was sxxx, not now.  Now the quality of your playback is good enough that you can tell when something sucks, or is subpar.  Even worse, as someone growing up in the 80's and 90's, most music then and before was recorded rather poorly....and thus, when you play it back in your system, it may kind of suck!  And then you'll hear a remastered version in 5.1 or 7.1 and you'll freak going....ah my system is just fine it's the recording that sucks.  That whole concept of moving up the quality of your playback is very, very exciting and something few people understand or bother to do.  People watch what, on average 4+ hours of TV a day but don't bother to calibrate the sound...or the picture?  Yuck.  Lazy and uninformed....

 

I've owned Gravity for a while on blu-ray and no matter what else you do, for $9 on Amazon, get it, it's the best pinpoint sound recording to date imo.  However having said that, the sound quality is still decent enough coming through cable or streaming to get the effect.  I saw Gravity in the IMAX theater in 3D, a very empty theater (the only way I do it), and then I watched it at home on cable, then on blu-ray multiple times, I know that track!  

 

-- In the theater, IMAX tuned as good as can be, me sitting in the middle.  The sound in a theater is massive, much more powerful sounding in a big theater.  But that first 20 minutes consists of mostly talk, with some music from Clooney's radio.  That intro starts it, where there's a sizzling shimmering tone that is the same tone they use later when the ISS is breaking up.  First remember this -- although you may have a 7.1 system, and the theater may have also, really the way these are recorded is to sound like a perfect 5.1 system, even if using 7.1.  So there were really only 4 places to listen to (this is all, non-Atmos mind you) -- front left, front right, back left, and back right.  Now, I'm talking sitting probably 30 or 40 feet from the back surrounds.  YET during the movie, it sounded like someone in the row behind me was talking, almost whispering directly in my ear.  THAT good.  And at home it is the same.  4 precise points, although believe it or not, the back left is not used much in this instance, has much to do with the position of the shuttle, earth and our viewpoint.  Believe it or not -- you likely wouldn't know this -- that first 12 minutes or so right up until the ISS explodes is actually ONE CONTINUOUS SHOT.  It wasn't actually shot that way of course, but watch it again and you'll see it...they spent I think 3 years filming this movie and that intro was the Oscar winner.  NOW...to complicate it further, I believe that Gravity was one of the first Atmos movies and certainly the first to win an Oscar.  So with an Atmos system, there is even more to consider as the height was carefully controlled in this movie relative to the viewing.  Anyway...get the blu-ray already!  You've been thinking about that too long, if you don't have Amazon Prime let me know I'll send you a copy and you can decide if it's worth sending me $9 :)

 

Okay okay...I ordered it already lol :)  And holy COW I was sitting there thinking I dont hear anything coming from the left back...I though I was doing something wrong.

 

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

I found the first four transformer movies on ebay for I think $16 total....bought a "set" that had 3 of the 4 for $12...and had happened somehow to buy the other one for $4 elsewhere before that, making a complete set.  That's how to get sets or larger lots of blurays...get them on ebay.  But singles are often as cheap on amazon when shipping is included.

 

You know, this is the only way I will watch those movies.....for the sound....

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

A few other top action titles that show off surround:

 

> Edge of Tomorrow

> Twister

> Battleship

> Mad Max Fury Road

> For an interesting and cheap 7.1 "music" blu-ray, the Doors Movie.  Amazing to hear those older songs mastered into 7.1

> 300

> Olympus has Fallen / London has Fallen

> Kill Bill Vol 1 and 2

 

Plenty more if you want recommendations.  

 

Man, give Unbreakable a try.  Especially the last three chapters.  It was really nice, I am biased though I love that movie.

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

 

As for DTS vs Dolby, they are two COMPANIES, and have built differing codecs for how their sound is coded and then decoded.  In general, DTS was WAY better years ago, and today imo is still a bit better.  So given the choice, DTS is a slightly better coding, but when it comes to Master Audio, I doubt there's much difference you can hear, both are uncompressed.

 

So then the question is:  The receiver, it needs to be able to decode all of the different formats, is that right?  

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

 

OK the ceiling....all the answers are already here in this forum.  Search a bit or ask about it, but each question you have is a thread here that's been discussed recently.  Many people asking about what is needed for Atmos -- you need to google the manual and read it - I have, and I doubt I'll ever get it!  But reading it told me the answers to most of what you're asking.  14 foot ceiling is their ideal spec, but it works in most ceilings.  In ceiling is considered by those discussing it here (and MLO, who sells it) to be superior for effect.  Most have said that 2 speakers for Atmos is not enough, you want more.  4 perhaps.  As I had mentioned before, make sure if SOUNDPROOFING that it will achieve the desired effect.  Sound control within the room to sound good is easy...soundproofing to keep sound from leaving the room is much, much more difficult and expensive, but is done frequently.  

 

Yeah we are soundPROOFing, its going to be expensive but we really need to do it.  This has been a dream of mine for a very long time...to be able to watch and enjoy without worrying I am disturbing the rest of the household.  I'm sure when my kids are older (they even do it now) they will want to watch a movie in the basement and I will be like "Turn that down dammit!!"  Lol

 

As far as Atmos is concerned it was getting excited about it but really need to decide what I am doing before we have the ceiling done starting November 6th. 

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

 

Believe it or not -- the very best in surround sound still comes from games.  XBOX or PS4 will demonstrate this well, but omg some games the sound is insanely impressive, and immersive.  Most movies assume the viewer is looking at the screen and the action...some games do too.  But others assume more that you are "in" the game, so that where you sit is in the battlefield, or in the environment.  This causes there to be much more obvious and severe surround sound that can be absolutely astounding.  Battlefield, Call of Duty, Steep, Far Cry, Grand Theft Auto are but a few of the truly remarkable ones.

 

I dont even have the Xbox One connected to the receiver, I am going to have to do that now!  

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

You know your surround sound is working well when you pause it, or crinckle your ear thinking either someone is calling you or you heard a sound elsewhere in the house..and really it was in the recording.  Getting "fooled" is the very best compliment you can give your system.  Same goes for a sub and integration....I blindfold someone and bring them into either theater and play anything they want, they could never, ever tell where the subs are, not even close.  Really well integrated systems are seamless and amazing.  You're already there my friend!   

 

I wonder if I really have it balanced THAT well.  

 

5 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

 

What is your real name....let me know or PM me, I'm curious...and my name is Rob :)

 

 

 

LOL its Scott.

 

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40 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

Forgot to add Fight Club, one of my all-time favorites and one that few really realize is so good

 

A lot of people love music, a lot love HT, some love both.  This movie (I'm throwing it in for a partial watch) is the best combination of both possibly ever.  Not that the music is better than other movies but only a few times have soundtracks so closely mirrored the personalities in the movie.  IMO one of the very best movies made actually.  

 

I dare you, in fact I actually caution you NOT to, try and watch the plane crash scene at full reference.  I have not allowed myself to do it yet.  I'm not afraid at all for the system itself, but me.  It's beyond frightening and ear-shattering.   I still consider it one of the most impressive HT moments.

 

The entire movie however has a running Chemical Brothers soundtrack that is incredible in the right room.  

 

Well looks like I will be shopping at my favorite place on earth...Amazon Prime!!  Hey how about the movie Flight with Denzel Washington...That plane crash must sound amazing!!

 

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On 8/8/2017 at 3:32 PM, RoboKlipsch said:

The cheapest acoustic panels I have found made by pros came from -- http://www.mixmasteracoustics.com

They are inexpensive, don't charge for delivery, and usually have a $25 off coupon for a first purchase.

 

Acoustimac is another excellent source, as is GIK acoustics.

If you want to build your own, I have other ideas for you.  But for your first couple panels it makes sense to buy them and see what they should look, feel like etc.

 

Acoustic treatment is a whole subject requiring a lot of discussion but the basic gist is, you need panels where reflections are strong.

This tends to be from the front L, C and R speakers.  So someone takes a mirror....yes a hand mirror, and holds it on the left wall roughly half-way between the central listening position, and the speaker itself.  The mirror is moved until at the seated position, you "see" that speaker in the mirror.  The mirror is at the reflection point for that speaker at that seat.  You do this for the L, C and R speakers, and then note where they are on the walls.  You can often cover all 3 speakers on the side with one 2x4 (foot) panel.  Sometimes it takes 2 per side.  You would do the same for the right side.  Yes, you need a helper for this, you can't hold the mirror and sit at the same time.  I use a light of some sort on the speaker to help make finding it easier in the mirror.

 

The typical first reflection problem points are on the side walls, from the front speakers.  In some rooms, in some setups, you need panels elsewhere.  Because of how close you may sit to the back wall, panels on the back wall may help absorb reflections that are close (that back wall) and thereby reduce the "noise" and improve the clarity of all the speakers.  So again a bit of legwork to discover what you may need is critical here.  

 

From that info you can see why finding the proper seating position and speaker position needs to be done first, then absorption can be done based upon the layout.  it doesn't hurt to buy a few panels as you will definitely use them, but what color, what size, how many, are all easy to discern but take some work.

 

I would recommend 4" panels if in the room there will only be a few, you cannot have too much 4" absorption (you can, but that's a ton of panels).   2" panels are a bit cheaper and will also work.  The difference is how low it absorbs.  At 2" panels, it goes down to roughly 250hz and a bit lower but the abosrption is low down below 250.  a 4" panel will get you closer to 100hz, with a bit under that too. 

 

It's gonna work and work well.  It is a bit frustrating moving things around I know, but it WILL work.  Keep tweaking, as much as you can stand to listen and tweak the positions.  They will dial in and quickly you'll say -- "THAT'S IT!"  because it either sounds incredible, or you simply cannot improve it.  Since you are going with on-walls, you'll have the ability to fine tune their position and even change it, as you modify your room.  

 

Ok I think its time for sound panels because sometimes I am in love with this system and then I go back and listen again and think "hmmm...something is not quite right".

 

I think that I need a panel that will go around that corner, is this something that I am going to have to make myself?  I checked the three websites and I didn't see THIS type of panel.  What if I did two 12"x48"x2"?

 

IMG_4139.jpg

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RoboKlipsch    365

there are 1x4 panels too.  if i have time ill take a pic of mine but yes treating a corner is very key.  mirror trick will tell you where u need panels.  in your case with the back wall close you will almost def want some there...but understanding bass traps is important to.   the final key after early reflections is to reduce the decay time in the bass region.  then u get that tight bass of a theater.  

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Davis    278
On 8/23/2017 at 10:02 PM, RoboKlipsch said:

Forgot to add Fight Club, one of my all-time favorites and one that few really realize is so good

 

I dare you, in fact I actually caution you NOT to, try and watch the plane crash scene at full reference.  I have not allowed myself to do it yet.  I'm not afraid at all for the system itself, but me.  It's beyond frightening and ear-shattering.   I still consider it one of the most impressive HT moments.

 

The entire movie however has a running Chemical Brothers soundtrack that is incredible in the right room.  

I love a good dare.

I had no idea of the sountrack of this movie.

I am going to buy it.

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28 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

there are 1x4 panels too.  if i have time ill take a pic of mine but yes treating a corner is very key.  mirror trick will tell you where u need panels.  in your case with the back wall close you will almost def want some there...but understanding bass traps is important to.   the final key after early reflections is to reduce the decay time in the bass region.  then u get that tight bass of a theater.  

 

okay I ordered 2 of Acoustimac DMD-412 Acoustic Panels 48"X12"X2" and 2 of Acoustimac DMD-BT4000 Bass Traps 48"X24"X4" 

 

I hope that will help man.....

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RoboKlipsch    365

Unbreakable is a good 4star movie and imo the ONLY great movie by Shymalan.  A true origin story without supernatural powers....brillant.  lol ive seen it 10x but maybe not on my newer systems.  Oos call....so many movies are remarkably better w great sound.  Flight was excellent too...perhaps deja vu qould be good full surround.  

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RoboKlipsch    365
On 8/30/2017 at 9:47 AM, Davis said:

I love a good dare.

I had no idea of the sountrack of this movie.

I am going to buy it.

Arguably the best soundtrack in a movie.  Plane crash i think i did -15 or -18....its got a very high pitch engine whine...man if u can survive 0 i give you credit.  But that movie man....pitt and norton are incredible....

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RoboKlipsch    365
On 8/30/2017 at 9:50 AM, supercooldude said:

 

okay I ordered 2 of Acoustimac DMD-412 Acoustic Panels 48"X12"X2" and 2 of Acoustimac DMD-BT4000 Bass Traps 48"X24"X4" 

 

I hope that will help man.....

It will be a huge leap you will immediately think about buying more

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3 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

It will be a huge leap you will immediately think about buying more

 

 

Ok, I definitely trust you! Lol.  

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On 8/30/2017 at 10:19 AM, RoboKlipsch said:

there are 1x4 panels too.  if i have time ill take a pic of mine but yes treating a corner is very key.  mirror trick will tell you where u need panels.  in your case with the back wall close you will almost def want some there...but understanding bass traps is important to.   the final key after early reflections is to reduce the decay time in the bass region.  then u get that tight bass of a theater.  

 

You kinda know my room by now, where are you thinking to place the bass traps?  Are you meaning the corner bass traps?  The two flat 4" panels for the back wall are considered bass traps because they are 4" thick.

 

Ohohoh....what about the ceiling?

 

I am curious to see how this turns out because if our dog barks in the basement, or I yell at the kids :o theres that strange metallic echo that happens.  Don't know quite how to explain it.

We dont have carpet on the floor, we did until the puppy came, but I just decided to get rid of it because we are constantly moving furniture or playing video games and blah blah blah.  But I was thinking maybe a fun death star throw rug in the middle for fun.  What say you oh Klipsch master??

 

 

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On 8/23/2017 at 4:55 PM, RoboKlipsch said:

Awesome!

When I mentioned Transformers, I was actually thinking of the intro with the Stars....  

 

 

After I recalibrated my tv and properly set up the audio and some sound panels, I watched this entire franchise and it was like watching a new movie.  There is so much detail that you mis when your equipment isn't set up properly.  The forest battle scene is another great scene but that one is from Revenge of the Fallen.

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2 hours ago, Loudnobnoxious said:

 

After I recalibrated my tv and properly set up the audio and some sound panels, I watched this entire franchise and it was like watching a new movie.  There is so much detail that you mis when your equipment isn't set up properly.  The forest battle scene is another great scene but that one is from Revenge of the Fallen.

 

Lol, not to sound obnoxious but there are only two reasons I can watch these...One is for my son, two is for the sound and three is nostalgia and four is to keep hope alive. (I'm also bad at counting)

 

But seriously the sound is just incredible!!  And until I get those sound panels if I turn it up too loud it kind of erases all of the surround effects.

 

 

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RoboKlipsch    365

I went through half of Transformers 1 last night with my kid, I'll go through the whole series with him prepping for the Blu Ray Release in late Sept.

 

Honestly, I watched the first one on cable and turned it off after 30 minutes.  They really don't bother to explain who is who, what is what, why, etc, and it's just loud and crazy.  But after watching the whole series a few times, there is actually a plot under there and it's kind of fun...but in the end, the sound effects are definitely the highlight.

 

The other interesting thing is, Part 1 is really kind of weak sound-wise...it's good, but when you get to 2,3,4 Bay really went nuts and has a heck of a sound mixer.  2 3 and 4 have incredible scenes.

 

I watched Fury Road last night...not sure I ever watched it on BluRay before, I think I watched on HBO.  Night and day, once again, the low end bass is so much more forceful and awesome it's not even a comparison. Once again the blu ray detail....mmmm.  That movie could be the best for sound right now, the amount of bass from the vehicles is incredible, as is the story and acting.

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RoboKlipsch    365
16 hours ago, supercooldude said:

 

You kinda know my room by now, where are you thinking to place the bass traps?  Are you meaning the corner bass traps?  The two flat 4" panels for the back wall are considered bass traps because they are 4" thick.

 

Ohohoh....what about the ceiling?

 

I am curious to see how this turns out because if our dog barks in the basement, or I yell at the kids :o theres that strange metallic echo that happens.  Don't know quite how to explain it.

We dont have carpet on the floor, we did until the puppy came, but I just decided to get rid of it because we are constantly moving furniture or playing video games and blah blah blah.  But I was thinking maybe a fun death star throw rug in the middle for fun.  What say you oh Klipsch master??

 

 

Metallic echo is known as "ringing", which is a room mode that is being excited big time and is lingering way too long.  This is exactly the kind of thing someone who begins to listen more carefully will notice.  You want that ringing gone.  Ringing comes from the room, but especially from staircases and anything of that sort.  

 

Treatment is not a 1-2-3 thing, it's not difficult but not a super fast process you do in an hour. It could be done over a weekend, but I think it's best to add some panels, see how it sounds and then add some more.  Really, at a certain point, being able to measure your room becomes almost necessary -- you can literally SEE the benefit of each panel as it is added...a dip is less of a dip, a peak is less peaked, in some cases it smooths something out completely.

 

Terminology is kind of loose for most people when discussing acoustic panels.

 

When reducing reflections from near sources....i.e. the first reflections from the front speakers bouncing off the side walls, much improvement can be found with simply a 2" panel.  But an issue with 2" panels is, they don't absorb a lot of low end, some below 250hz and then not much below 100hz.  A 4 inch panel is often called a "broadband panel", because it is just thick enough to begin to absorb bass below 100hz.  So all these things are acoustic panels, but only ones that cover the entire spectrum are considered broadband panels, or as some call them, bass traps.  It's not truly a bass trap in that it also absorbs the rest of the spectrum.

 

The ringing you hear is reduced or eliminated with any panel 2" thick or thicker.  Have a staircase nearby?  Snap your fingers on the staircase and hear what ringing really sounds like.  That is again, reflection problems. Put a panel on the door and at the bottom, amazing you probably removed all the ringing.  

 

BUT, for bass trapping, there is often a lot more panels needed.  So for example, you can use the 4" thick panels for first reflections -- it will do what a 2" panel does, but also absorb some of the excess low end bass that is lingering.  But there is more to bass traps, when there is an air pocket between the trap and wall, such as corner placed traps, there is an added benefit that the traps go lower.  So not only the corners, but for example on my front wall, at the bottom I have 3 bass traps with air pockets...so they stick out at the floor a foot or so, and are angled into the wall.  All this does is absorb extra bass as opposed to them being flush against the wall.  This can be done almost anywhere in the room.

 

It is very hard, in most rooms, to have too much bass trapping.  I have 8 in this theater, along with a dozen or more 2" panels, and it's incredible...but could be more still.   So my point is, it's very hard to absorb too much low end.  What people sometimes get wrong is they have too many 2" panels in the room, absorbing all the mid and high end, and don't have any bass trapping.

 

What does this do?

 

Think of those waterfall graphs.  The high end decays VERY fast with all those 2" panels.  So the graph is very short on the right side...but the bass lingers forever seemingly, leaving a mountain on the left side of the graph.  The ideal graph is consistent and short.  Too short overall is hard to achieve -- too short on PART of the spectrum is what we look to avoid.

 

So if you take that to heart, you'll see that the first few near reflections -- those front speakers and really your back wall, need to be treated with at least 2" panels.  That will reduce ringing and also reduce the reflections and improve clarity BIG TIME.  But after those first few, it's critical to begin adding bass traps to the room to even out the decay.  In fact, most rooms would benefit most from adding a ton of bass traps first...but there is benefit to those first few reflections being absorbed too.  So it's a balance.

 

I have ceiling panels.  It is more tricky than you think to treat ceilings/floors, it often depends upon the room i.e. what is on the floor? If the floor is hard wood, then yes, some treatment of the ceiling is likely to help, but in that regard, I would caution you want and need to measure those.  Sometimes you add a panel and it makes the response and decay worse -- you need to be able to truly see it when dealing with the ceiling.  Bass traps and first reflections however (what you should focus on for now), do not need measurements, although it can help.

 

So in your room, I would imagine 1 or 2 panels on the left and right sides, that are placed to block all 3 front speaker reflections -- left, center and right.  So the mirror works for each speaker on each side, someone needs to help you and you mark all three center positions for each speaker on each side. Then you determine if one panel, or 2 (or 3) is needed to cover each spot well.  Most designs use the panels vertically, but there is no requirement.  It is done often so that seating height can vary without losing the absorbption.

 

The back wall, because the couch is close, needs absorption because you will hear the reflection from the front speakers bouncing off the back wall and it will be significant, and noticeable.  Again, a panel needs to block the reflection for each seat, so if you have 3 seats, for example in the main area, I would want a panel or panels that clearly absorbs the reflections off the back wall at ear level -- and above and below.  So for example you might get away with one or 2 panels back there, or use 3.  2"?  Sure is fine, but 4" is better, but sticks out a lot.  In the end, you need bass traps, but those first reflections will be equally impressive.

 

It's hard at first to imagine putting in bass traps in a room where you want a lot of bass...but you realize once they are installed that what it does is reduce that ringing....or decay time....in the bass region.  By doing so, each note becomes more clear, and disappears when it is supposed to.  The bass traps will make people not believe how good your sub system sounds.   When you recalibrate after adding panels, the levels usually need to be higher -- it takes more output as the absorbption increaess, but it's a small tradeoff for great sound.  

 

So 1st reflections on side walls, first reflections on back wall

Bass traps, bass traps, bass traps

 

Then, if you want to go further, measure and you can begin to add more panels that will continue to smooth out the decay times and make it sound better and better. An interesting side effect is that your room will become a quiet room -- not dead, but very quiet.  mine is the quietest room in the house.    Take a nap in that room once threated you won't believe it.  

 

Bass traps are most effective in tri-corners, it absorbs the most bass.  Unlike panels for reflections, location of bass traps is not nearly as important.  The bass waves are huge, 20, 30 40 feet so they are all over the room.  By using the tricorners first (true corners of a room), it absorbs the most, because the most bass builds up in the corners.

 

So floor to ceiling is ideal, but partial is fine too.  As you should imagine....if a bass trap is in a corner, it would also be helpful that it is positioned to absorb reflections of higher waves....so either floor to ceiling, or at least floor to high enough to be above ear level -- thus you trap the bass and get benefits from more absorption of reflections.

 

Go this far, and you'll have a theater that rivals the real theaters, and beats the theater every friend you know has, short of those with a dedicated one.  

 

Examples are always tricky, and there are many measurements taken, but here's an example of the difference between my upstairs theater, which is lighly calibrated and totally untreated, vs m downstairs theater which is carefully calibrated and close to fully treated.  

59a9909354b78_RT60foranuntreatedroom.jpg.12b0c17fae3d167125af4db668acec92.jpg59a9908c98328_RT60foratreatedroom.jpg.d52f787cb5471fa58891d3d41035ed25.jpg

 

Most important you want the blue bar to be flat, it indicates the decay across the spectrum.   Notice how the one up top is not as flat, it actually has a lot of high end that decays slower than the bass in this instance. I can explain it however by also adding that upstairs, it is an open room, so the bass can "escape", while high frequencies which are directional cannot, really.

 

But more importantly, look at the decay times.  The top one is actually in the range specified for a good room, .3 to .5s decay time.   But the bottom one, as you can see, it highly treated an at that measuring position (they vary a bit, but are simliar), the decay time is just under .2s.  So what's the difference?  Tight, punchy, awesome theater like sound downstairs.....lighter, airier, brighter music upstairs.  Both can play either, but each is specialized for what it does best.  The upstairs in fact would still benefit from some acoustic panels, which may happen at some point, but I have resisted the temptation to take over the entire house with my hobby :)

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7 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

But more importantly, look at the decay times.  The top one is actually in the range specified for a good room, .3 to .5s decay time.   But the bottom one, as you can see, it highly treated an at that measuring position (they vary a bit, but are simliar), the decay time is just under .2s.  So what's the difference?  Tight, punchy, awesome theater like sound downstairs.....lighter, airier, brighter music upstairs.  Both can play either, but each is specialized for what it does best.  The upstairs in fact would still benefit from some acoustic panels, which may happen at some point, but I have resisted the temptation to take over the entire house with my hobby :)

 

I just read through that entire AWESOME post, thank you so much!

 

I will probably re read it a zillion times and takes notes BUT my big question is how the heck do you "measure" the room?  

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RoboKlipsch    365

you purchase  a UMIK and download a free copy of REW 

The UMIKs can be purchased from Madisound at a good price and ship in a day or two

other sources such as UMIK direct import from China and takes a few weeks

 

the graphs i posted are one of about 10 tabs in REW - again free software

it illustrates everything about a room measurement....SPL, distortion, RT60 (shown), Group Delay, Waterfall etc.

 

It is the proof that each step you take is improving things

 

I measure before and after audyssey, before and after any PEQ, before and after everything:)

 

buy the measurement microphone, and you will open a whole new world

you think you know where your speakers should be (up front especially)...wait until you can measure

 

the placement of each front speaker, and even how much it is toe'd in will have dramatic effects upon response

i use 3 main seating positions as my judge for success, as I don't want one good seat but 3

i measure using all 8 audyssey positions, and try and use the same ones over and over so that when I make a change, i can see and hear exactly what it did...scientific method at least in short...change one thing, measure, change it measure etc.

 

there's two giant worlds for you to explore, one is speaker placement and treatment for those first reflections

the other is sub placement, bass trapping and creating an almost flat response and short decay in the bass region

 

i pieced this all together myself from discussions, reading, hearing other people's ideas etc, i'm happy to share what i know :)

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