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Dayton Planar Horn Tweets on LaScala


jwgorman

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I've wanted to try these Dayton Planar Horns on my LaScalas for some time, just to check them out. They can be crossed over at 1.7K, they claim 105db/w/m and can handle a lot of power. So I blew in a pair, along with some dayton 3uf caps to run a first order crossover (they are 6 ohms). 

 

I've been living with my Crites CT120s sitting atop the LaScala cabs such that the VC of the tweets are inline with the VC of the A55G mids (yes I know that really doesn't make them time aligned: ) and I actually liked that sound. I screwed the Dayton horns onto a piece of 2x4 and have played with them set up both vertically and horizontally. 

 

I am going to spend 2 weeks evaluating these. At first blush I think the 105 db is probably not the exaggeration I thought it would probably be. Not as hot as the B&C120s but that's ok. A different tonal characteristic to be sure. I think they might be a bit faster on transients, but I need to listen more. So far I think they are a quality alternative if you don't mind a science experiment on top of your Klipsch. There are sometimes, like well recorded violins, where I get more depth of texture with these Daytons. But like I said I have to spend some time to see if I like them more or they are just different and thus interesting. 

 

 

 

 

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Keep us up to date.  

 

Probably not as crystal clear as a true ribbon (though probably cleaner that the CT120) but also probably has more body than a true ribbon.  The dispersion characteristics and listening position will make the most change in the character with this type of tweeter.

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19 hours ago, jwgorman said:

I've been living with my Crites CT120s sitting atop the LaScala cabs such that the VC of the tweets are inline with the VC of the A55G mids (yes I know that really doesn't make them time aligned)

 

Why would you say think that? Can you explain your understanding of TA?

 

Bruce

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6 hours ago, No.4 said:

Cool project! Would you elaborate a little more on the crossover?

Sure, I have a Klipsch Type A now on my LaScalas, so I replaced the 2uf feeding the tweet, with a 3uf. I will probably play around with other values, just to hear what happens.

5 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

Why would you say think that? Can you explain your understanding of TA?

 

Bruce

I read an interview with Richard Vandersteen about the problems associated with time alignment/coherence etc. Maybe I should have said (it may or may not make them time aligned). But, they are definitely closer to being in time alignment with them at the back of the cab rather than mounted on the front like where they started life. IIRC you have a tweeter on the top/rear of your Lascalas. I know PWK said the offset between the squawker and the tweet wasn't important, but as you well know when the time alignment gets closer (like mounting a tweet where you have mounted yours) it is a subtle difference and but after listening for a while, it starts to become more noticeable.

Type A mod for Dayton Planar.jpg

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14 hours ago, pzannucci said:

Keep us up to date.  

 

Probably not as crystal clear as a true ribbon (though probably cleaner that the CT120) but also probably has more body than a true ribbon.  The dispersion characteristics and listening position will make the most change in the character with this type of tweeter.

I am curious to understand your thinking that this little ribbon would have lower distortion than a CT120 would. I have not tried either unit myself. The CT120 is a B&C driver with a Mylar 1.4" diaphragm the low end cut off is about 1500Hz. I cannot recall but off the top of my head a LaScala crossover is between 4500Hz and 5KHz. depending on the networks used, so use as a tweeter both the planar unit and the compression driver will cover this same range well above the low end cut off of both units. The planar unit will have some sort of polyimide (Kapton variant used to withstand heat heavier than Mylar) in addition to that it will have the added mass of the deposited metal voice coils probably aluminum or copper coated aluminum. I would not think that the moving mass of the planar diaphragm is less than that of the compression driver nor can I imagine that the damping on the diaphragm of the planar is more than the load on the compression driver. As such it would be my first impression to think that the compression driver would have an immediate advantage with respect to distortion. That's not to say the planar might not sound very good I am not suggesting that just that from a design point of view the compression drive should have the edge. As for published figures it has been my experience that Dayton is not always forthright with such data so I would not want to rely on their say so, that would not be the case with B&C.

   One obvious difference between these two drivers is going to be dispersion. With the planar unit mounted horizontally it is going to have much narrower horizontal dispersion which will lessen side wall reflections and that alone might or might not make for a nice improvement depending upon your room. It would be of interest if the OP would have a listen to the planar units mounted vertically and see what the addition of side wall bounce does to the sound. I wanted to point this out as it is not an apples to apples comparison. Just to check this is a mono pole planar? I like planar speakers especially dipoles and I spent almost 25 years living with electrostats of one kind or another to be sure some of the finest tweeters in the world a planar in design those however cost just a little bit more than the Dayton units do.

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Moray, saying Dayton is not forthright with their data just might qualify for understatement of the day! :) As I mentioned, I suspected their efficiency numbers were off. But, at least up where the 3uf, fed off the squawker cap, lets the tweet start singing, it keeps up. As I mentioned I don't think it's as hot as the B&C.

Dayton claims 60 degree horizontal dispersion.  I suspect you are correct about a very tight vertical dispersion. 

Also as I mentioned I'm still listening to the differences between the tweets and I've set the B&C tweet horn vertically too. That is interesting, I have insulated drapes where the tweets would bounce but set on their sides it sounds good in the zone and no potential for side wall bounce. 

You bring up a good point about distortion. I have a 25 watt tube luxman that can play plenty loud and I should crank up some Who or Zep and let her rip. I've been trying to act my age and listen responsibly to acoustic music and judge these guys on their subtlety. 

They sound different than the B&Cs. I need some time to determine if I think they are better or just different. 

Oh and they are monopole. The whole back is heatsink fins! I've never torn a planar speaker apart before, but with that monster heat sink I think they can probably get rid of a lot of heat.

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even though there are heat sinks the VC of the planar can only sink heat into one direction (to the back side) with the magnetic assembly of the compression driver the VC can sink heat into both sides of the coil note the heat sinking in the comp driver is not totally even on both sides (of the coil) but there will be a distinct advantage. The other major advantage I see the compression driver having is a far greater and more uniform load on the diaphragm itself. Compression drivers have distortion characteristics which are more like an amplifier than a dynamic loudspeaker. With lever the linearity of the planar just gets worse and worse the louder you play it the comp driver again has a big advantage. I want to say again that does not mean the planar cannot sound good but it does have a number of physical disadvantages. Look to the pro world and you will see they are not many planar units and those which are there are very expensive and generally limited in performance. Lots of very cheap comp driver which can sound very good and deliver a lot of performance for the money. I planar's were able to deliver and were cost effective you would see many more of them. Home audio is not even close to pro even HT does not push as hard as pro sound systems so I am not attempting to rule out planar's as I mentioned I do like them very much.

   With the little Dayton you have two dispersion choices up and down is option #1 and left to right is option #2. The patter does leak it's not laser sharp but the is a little leakage but it's not a lot and the closer you are to them the less noticeable it will be.

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3 hours ago, moray james said:

even though there are heat sinks the VC of the planar can only sink heat into one direction (to the back side) with the magnetic assembly of the compression driver the VC can sink heat into both sides of the coil note the heat sinking in the comp driver is not totally even on both sides (of the coil) but there will be a distinct advantage. The other major advantage I see the compression driver having is a far greater and more uniform load on the diaphragm itself. Compression drivers have distortion characteristics which are more like an amplifier than a dynamic loudspeaker. With lever the linearity of the planar just gets worse and worse the louder you play it the comp driver again has a big advantage. I want to say again that does not mean the planar cannot sound good but it does have a number of physical disadvantages. Look to the pro world and you will see they are not many planar units and those which are there are very expensive and generally limited in performance. Lots of very cheap comp driver which can sound very good and deliver a lot of performance for the money. I planar's were able to deliver and were cost effective you would see many more of them. Home audio is not even close to pro even HT does not push as hard as pro sound systems so I am not attempting to rule out planar's as I mentioned I do like them very much.

   With the little Dayton you have two dispersion choices up and down is option #1 and left to right is option #2. The patter does leak it's not laser sharp but the is a little leakage but it's not a lot and the closer you are to them the less noticeable it will be.

As I said and you pointed out, the major difference would be the dispersion.  In the pro world, there are no planars that are 109db efficient or better for $50 so a ribbon or planar will not cut it in the average band.  As far as output, we are not talking 120 db peaks all the time, are we jwgorman?

My point about likely being cleaner is at normal home listening levels, the waterfalls on many ribbons, pleated ribbons, planars and such, are better than you typically see in a compression driver, particularly with the horns they are mounted on.

 

As you said, the compression drivers are more cost effective and can sound very good.  Khorns stock sound good.  I 100% agree but I can say there is no comparison between my dual Audiom 6WMs with G1 Ribbon (true ribbon and capable of quite high output) and the top end of a Khorn.  Of course the crossover and parts cost 5 times as much so there is a cost balance.

 

Pro world is mostly about cost balance and output.  Let's see what gwgorman's final thoughts are.  Does it sound cleaner and able to reduce reflections in the room better?  Of course it will not be the normal Klipsch sound.

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looking forward to more listening feedback. Like I said I love the sound of a good planar especially dipoles even though I know the additional "space" is not real it is an artifact but a really nice one. Agree also home levels are a lot less than pro so even the Pollock planars used on the Linaeum speakers can sound truly wonderful at home levels.

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Moray I spent tonight listening (though I had to listen at quieter than normal levels as my daughters were in bed early tonight) and an odd thing happened at quiet levels...I switched to the input side of the mid cap to get a little more level out of the planars and left the 2uf cap in that I use (on the output side of the mid cap) on the B&C driver. It sounded better that way as it seems to be a slight increase in volume and keeps the cutoff freq pretty close (caps in series vs a cap fed from the input). They sounded good.

 

But then I rewired, set up the B&Cs and played Rod Stewart Every Picture Tells a Story (vinyl) again and they sounded very good and detailed, again, but different. I may have preferred the plucked mandolin stuff on the B&Cs. 

 

You know, I think the only safe thing to do at this point is for you to blow in a pair and try it out. PE has a very easy return policy and a cross-check is always a good idea.

 

But, in any event, I will report again with a LOUD volume report (loud like 105-108db C-weighted peaks) and post what I think. 

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7 hours ago, jwgorman said:

Moray I spent tonight listening (though I had to listen at quieter than normal levels as my daughters were in bed early tonight) and an odd thing happened at quiet levels...I switched to the input side of the mid cap to get a little more level out of the planars and left the 2uf cap in that I use (on the output side of the mid cap) on the B&C driver. It sounded better that way as it seems to be a slight increase in volume and keeps the cutoff freq pretty close (caps in series vs a cap fed from the input). They sounded good.

 

But then I rewired, set up the B&Cs and played Rod Stewart Every Picture Tells a Story (vinyl) again and they sounded very good and detailed, again, but different. I may have preferred the plucked mandolin stuff on the B&Cs. 

 

You know, I think the only safe thing to do at this point is for you to blow in a pair and try it out. PE has a very easy return policy and a cross-check is always a good idea.

 

But, in any event, I will report again with a LOUD volume report (loud like 105-108db C-weighted peaks) and post what I think. 

Careful with your listening position.  The plucked sound may very well more immediate with the B&C if you are not right on axis (think flashlight).  The small horn with no good compression load might not seem to have that initial transient.  Could also be crossover and distance to horn.  Anyway it sounds like fun for a not so deadly investment and considering the price, may be hard pressed to keep up with a good compression driver.

I have an extra set of G1's laying around otherwise I'd probably try them out.  Still wondering if I can swap directions on the autoformer and raise the output of those while of course dropping the impedance. 

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8 hours ago, Khornukopia said:

Your planar horn tweeters are interesting. Have you listened to them positioned vertically? 

 

Yes. I think I prefer both oriented so that the widest dispersion is horizontal. In other words, mounted normally. 

 

I am definitely in the beam of both of these drivers and like I said my heavy drapes take care of initial reflections off the sidewalls. 

 

More testing! :) 

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Tonight I started listening to some dixieland jazz stuff that Leon Redbone did around 1980, From Branch to Branch. I ran the Daytons like the schematic up above (3uf on the output side of the mid cap) and oriented vertically (normally). Tonight everything I played with the Daytons sounded great.  The big brass, Leon's guitar and voice, and the woodwinds were very lifelike. I realize that the tweeter, particularly in the old school Klipsch, is just the icing on the cake, but a good tweeter really adds the life to the body of the music.

 

The Dayton made the LaScalas sound larger. Well, they're physically large so that's not a shocker. But as the volume went up that became more apparent. Not that it transformed my LaScalas into super dynamic Magneplanars but above 6K it gave me a hint of maggie. 

 

According to my Radio Shack SPL meter that is about 25 years old and has been dropped a few times, I got up to about 105 db avg from 11 feet back at my listening position Everything sounded balanced and sweet. I played Dire Straights Love Over Gold and let the volume fly on Industrial Disease. It never got glarey or gave any other indication that it was straining. So I'd say for "normal" listening level averaging 85-95 db, they do really well. The bell hit after Mark says "Next patient please..." was very distinct and solidly in the center. Keeping the volume up I ran through the Sheffield Drum Record and played the Keltner improv. Oh man! Yeah. That record rules. Nothing upset the Daytons here. I thought if they'd choke it would be on something here. 

 

I left the Luxman on afterburner for Who Are You. It was loud and punchy and if I wasn't so old I would have gotten sloppy drunk and went looking for trouble. 

The kicker in tonight's experiment however, wasn't that they stayed together when I got loud, I guess I really didn't doubt they could hang with the SPL I'd ever get to in my living room. No, it was how they reproduced a Hammond/leslie. I love the sound of a Hammond B3 and a leslie cab. Those things are just magic to my ears. These Daytons added that ambience to the leslie on Tempted by Squeeze.

 

So, what did I learn from several hours of listening to music while switching out tweets? I'm off on a fool's errand if try to convince anyone which of these tweeters is better in this application. You can't go wrong with the B&C from Crites and I think it's a solid improvement over the k77. It also retains that Klipsch house sound, only better :) 

I think the Dayton is really groovy. Like you don't want to shut down the system groovy. You can try the Dayton with a couple of pieces of 2x4 (I had to shim the back end to get them to plumb) and if you don't scratch them or lose the packaging, you can return them. You can then call me crazy. That won't bother me. In my room, in my system, they sounded really groovy on everything I threw at them. I'll post at least one update as a guy who used to manage the local shop that moved so much Klipsch in the day that PWK used to come here and give talks and plug his khorns into the wall is coming over in a couple weeks and I'll feed him dinner and expensive cigars if he spins vinyl and tells me what he thinks. I want him to provide a cross check. I'm not going to tell him about the conclusions I've made until I hear his (he is not a reader of this forum BTW) 

 

I tried to video my system with my iphone while I was spinning some vinyl. I was just using the iphone mic. Not sure what anyone can glean from that. Plus I can only post 2MB so there's not much to see. In other words LAME, but maybe you can crank up some good headphones and listen. Not sure why the volume is so low. 

 

 

dayton tweets.mov

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