Opinion Bob Crites Woofers or Klipsch Woofers for LaScalas

[rjw1678]

My woofers in my 1996 LaScalas measure with a Fluke DMM Left 5.9ohms & Right 4.4ohms. New woofers from Klipsch are $129.23 each and Bob Crites woofers are $240 for a pair(per Bob Crites website). I am planning on replacing my woofers and I am looking for opinions.

 

I am the 3rd owner of these LaScalas and in 2011 one of the K-77M Tweeters had the diaphragm replaced(magnet dated 18th week of 1996, but a sticker on the tweeter say 12-21-2011 and solder on the terminal rivets does not look professional). I am thinking that whatever damaged the tweeter also damaged at least one woofer and since both woofers look identical possibly the woofer got repaired or the first owner bought a pair of used Klipsch K-33 woofers on eBay. The person I bought the speakers from in April 2017 bought them from the first owner in 2012.

 

Thank You,

Bob Walters

Edited August 23, 2017 by rjw1678

[codewritinfool]

You'll find that some here are purists and will tell you to stick with the K-33's.  I can tell you that I have heard K-33's and I have heard Bob's 1526C's.  It is my opinion that they sound the same to my ears.

 

Volti says the Crites units (in a Klipschorn) have "noticeably deeper and louder bass":  http://www.klipschupgrades.com/criteswoofers.shtml

 

Also, see this thread: 

  

[rjw1678]

33 minutes ago, codewritinfool said:

You'll find that some here are purists and will tell you to stick with the K-33's.  I can tell you that I have heard K-33's and I have heard Bob's 1526C's.  It is my opinion that they sound the same to my ears.

 

Volti says the Crites units (in a Klipschorn) have "noticeably deeper and louder bass":  http://www.klipschupgrades.com/criteswoofers.shtml

 

Also, see this thread: 

Last Saturday I installed a pair of Bob's Type A crossovers and a pair of CT120 tweeters, noticeable improvement. So I am not a purist. The K-77M's were over tighten by somebody and stripped out the screw holes on both speakers, so I had to use the next size larger screws. 

 

Tonight I am going to turn the LaScalas upside down and check the woofers with my DMM at the woofer terminals to eliminate the bass bin wiring.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2017 by rjw1678

[jimjimbo]

This is from the Volti site.....says two different things, three different ways.  Personally, I find it somewhat silly.

 

The difference in sound quality between the original Klipsch K-33 woofers and the Crites is not significant, but the Crites woofers do seem to be a bit more efficient, and therefore will produce slightly more bass and slightly deeper bass.

As I said, the difference is very slight, but in my own Khorns, the difference was noticeably deeper and louder bass. 

[zobsky]

Kappa 15c.

I've tried eminence kappa 15c (brand new ) and crites cast (new) in my Belle's. The crites have a bit more Bass but the eminence have better midbass/mid-range ie. A bit more articulate 

 

 

 

[rjw1678]

I just got done closing the bass bins. The woofers both measure 3.3-3.4ohms with my DMM at the woofers. So the woofers are good. Then I started checking the wiring it measures 0.0-0.1ohms and the Bass Bin connector block in the tweeter/squawker area measured 0.0ohms. The screws that goes from the inside the Bass Bin and screws into the Bass Bin connector block seems to have approximately 0.9ohms measurement. Looks like it is time to correct the woofer wiring, replace the screws, and Bass Bin connector block. 

 

I originally measured the woofer using the wires that I removed from the crossover. I now have the left woofer down to 4.3ohm when I measure using the wires that I removed from the crossover.

 

Thanks

Bob W.

Edited August 24, 2017 by rjw1678

[JohnA]

3.2 to 3.3 ohms is typical.  Maybe you just need to clean the connections. 

 

I wonder what mine read? 

[ClaudeJ1]

On 8/23/2017 at 7:32 PM, zobsky said:

Kappa 15c.

I've tried eminence kappa 15c (brand new ) and crites cast (new) in my Belle's. The crites have a bit more Bass but the eminence have better midbass/mid-range ie. A bit more articulate 

 

 

 

MY Hornresp simulations as well as measurements agree with this. The Crites are halfway between the K33 and the Eminence 15C. You can't go wrong with any of them, but I STRONGLY prefer the use of a subwoofer below 80-100 Hz. in a LaScala, since it is no longer horn loaded below 100 Hz. The 15C has the best midrange response at about +4db at 400 Hz, and VERY noticeable midrange detail. relative to the K33, so it would be my first choice with a passive LaScala network.

[zobsky]

On 8/26/2017 at 0:37 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

MY Hornresp simulations as well as measurements agree with this. The Crites are halfway between the K33 and the Eminence 15C. You can't go wrong with any of them, but I STRONGLY prefer the use of a subwoofer below 80-100 Hz. in a LaScala, since it is no longer horn loaded below 100 Hz. The 15C has the best midrange response at about +4db at 400 Hz, and VERY noticeable midrange detail. relative to the K33, so it would be my first choice with a passive LaScala network.

Have you tried reducing the size of the rear chamber (at least in your sims).  From what I can see, it boosts the bass around 80 Hz or thereabouts (at the expense of a steeper rolloff - which is of no consequence anyway if using a sub).

 

Thoughts ? 

[ClaudeJ1]

10 hours ago, zobsky said:

Have you tried reducing the size of the rear chamber (at least in your sims).  From what I can see, it boosts the bass around 80 Hz or thereabouts (at the expense of a steeper rolloff - which is of no consequence anyway if using a sub).

 

Thoughts ? 

Yes I have. with a 50% change in volume, the difference is minimal and relatively inconsequential fractional decibels. This in comparison to the ROOM acoustics which can vary in the 4-20 db range. It's called "barking up the wrong tree" in my estimation and measurements. Thanks for asking.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 8/23/2017 at 7:32 PM, zobsky said:

Kappa 15c.

I've tried eminence kappa 15c (brand new ) and crites cast (new) in my Belle's. The crites have a bit more Bass but the eminence have better midbass/mid-range ie. A bit more articulate 

 

 

 

This is exactly what I have been talking about, YES!

[rjw1678]

On 8/25/2017 at 4:10 PM, John Albright said:

3.2 to 3.3 ohms is typical.  Maybe you just need to clean the connections. 

 

I wonder what mine read? 

 

I just got done replacing all the woofer wiring and the screws going from inside the Bass Bin to the Bass Bin connector block. Klipsch used 18 gauge wiring and I replaced it with 14 gauge wiring. Klipsch used steel screws and they have corrosion right where they would have been in the connector block, my new screws are stainless steel. The woofers now measure 3.3-3.4 ohms on both speakers at the crossovers. Then it was time for a listening test, more bass and better sounding bass. 

[rjw1678]

What I found interesting while working on my 1996 LaScalas was that the Klipsch factory wiring used 18gauge for the woofers and 16gauge for the squawkers & tweeters from the crossovers.

[muel]

3 hours ago, rjw1678 said:

What I found interesting while working on my 1996 LaScalas was that the Klipsch factory wiring used 18gauge for the woofers and 16gauge for the squawkers & tweeters from the crossovers.

That IS interesting.  I wonder if this is nothing more than a matter of what was available in the parts bin during assembly?

[1HOHDude]

I changed out the K33s in my TSCMs.     I did them separately so I could compare the unmodified bin from the one with the new Crite's cast frame speaker.     The result was a modest increased in volume and what seemed to be boomier [forgive my unscientific use of this set of letters] bass.  I can not tell if this is due to a more efficient speaker or actual lower response but I suspect it might be a bit of both.

 

I did not have source material that allowed for an accurate measurement of frequency response.   The apparent increase in bass was noted by several of us that listened to the two playing the same material.   I watch a lot of movies and lacking a quality sub the additional bass seems to improve the experience.    

[muel]

I did the swap in my La Scalas with the cast version.  I also heard a bit "boomier" bass but in retrospect I had not done much yet to fix my room.   I had major peaks and nulls at that time on the low end.

[Arkytype]

FWIW,

 

Here's a comparison of the stock K-33 and Bob's CW1526C in one of my 1978 Klipschorns. The measurements were normalized at 100 Hz. Both (left & right) Klipschorn measurements showed the same roughly 6-14 dB "improvement" from 23-25 Hz with the CW1526C woofers. I regret not making distortion measurements at the time but that could be done easily as I still have the original K-33 woofers.

 

Measurement gear used: Bruel & Kjaer 4133 (omnidirectional) 1/2" mic capsule; Bruel & Kjaer 2669 preamplifier; Bruel & Kjaer Type 2636 Measuring Amplifier; licensed version of ARTA acoustic measurement software.

 

For accurate bass frequency measurements, I'm a big fan of Don Keele's innovative nearfield pressure measurement technique. The B & K mic obviously couldn't be placed near the woofer cone (as the technique calls for) but was about 18" above the floor very close to one of the side grill panels.

 

The link is to all his papers. Paper #6 is worth reading if you want to learn how to accurately assess your loudspeaker's low frequency performance.

 

http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/papers.htm

 

 

Lee