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Blackrapids

Suggestions for placement of up to 12 (!) Klipschorns and subwoofers for event

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Hi All!

 

Looking for advice to build the best possible sound experience for an upcoming event I'm organizing. At my disposal are 6 pairs of Klipschorns, a pair of Industrial split LaScalas, and a pair of "Keystone" 18" folded-horn subwoofers that measure about the height and width of the bass bin of a Klipschorn, and stack nicely under the LSI's.

 

I have false corners for the Khorns and risers for the top hats, to bring the high end above guests' heads.

 

The event is a dance-focused evening inspired by the Mancuso Loft parties in NYC. All vinyl, songs played start to finish and a wide journey of genres. 

 

Room dimensions are 40 feet by 60 feet, with 12 foot ceilings, and a main dance floor area of 32' by 32'. 

 

The goal is an immersive-as-possible sound field surrounding the dance floor, while trying to avoid major combing issues or conflict between the horns. 

 

The attached file shows the scale of the room and the Khorn's and LSI's for reference. 

 

My knowledge of live speaker placement is low- would love some suggestions or best practises to make this an incredible experience for our guests. 

Room-Layout.jpg

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Welcome,

 

IME, you can't go too far wrong, whatever you do. With the equipment at your disposal, the crowd will be immersed.  If anything, it might be overkill.

 

FWIW, as I've recounted many times before, in the mid-70s I used 4 Speakerlab SKhorns and 300 watts/channel of Dynaco SS power to deafen adolescents all over greater Detroit.  The speakers had the backs enclosed -- before that was de rigueur -- and were more than enough to fill HS gymnasiums with loud and clear "immersive" music, while sitting on the floor.  One person, while booking a repeat engagement, asked if the quoted price included "the drummer."  It was all I could do to convince her that there had never been a drummer.

 

With those speakers and subs, as well as the ability to raise them above the crowd,  you will be more than fine,  Please report back after the event.

 

 

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Thanks for the reply! Trying to sort out when it's going to be diminishing returns to add more speakers. It's exciting to have them at my disposal, but I realize that MORE isn't always necessarily BETTER :)

 

Sounds like you make some kids very happy in Detroit!

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What are you using to drive the speakers? Also, we want pictures. Welcome and good luck

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We have people here who have set up professional installations so maybe one of them will weigh in.  I am not one of those experts.

 

Based on your setup, I would not put speakers everywhere.  I know you want an immersive experience but your charts shows there is nowhere for people to get away from the sound.  People want to talk and I think they need someplace to get away from the sound.  The people at the tables nearest to the speakers will not be having a good time if the sound is in their ear all night.

 

I have heard a 6 La Scala setup in an area that size or bigger and running with consumer electronics at moderate power it was more than loud enough to completely pressurize the entire gym.

 

I like the L/C/R at the stage front with Khorns L/R and the LS in the center.  Keep that.

 

The next two speakers on the left and right walls are right behind the L/C/R and are not needed IMO.  Too close, I would eliminate those completely.

 

Keep the next pair on the wall near the center of the dance floor, left and right.  That seems about right to me.

 

I would eliminate the pair left and right next to the tables.  

 

If you must have two more speakers, I would reduce the power to them and put Khorns in the back corners with reduced SPL.  That way you will still have plenty of coverage but not overwhelm your audience.  If it were me I would still not have speakers in the table area.

 

My sense is that a 5.x setup with Khorns and La Scalas is more than enough to give your audience an immersive experience.  You want a full sound, but you don't want to blow people's ears out.  Especially if they are not used to listening at loud SPL, the pressure caused by moving all that air can give people headaches.

 

Run the entire setup in mono.  You'll surprised how good that sounds.

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3 hours ago, Blackrapids said:

Looking for advice to build the best possible sound experience for an upcoming event I'm organizing. At my disposal are 6 pairs of Klipschorns, a pair of Industrial split La Scalas, and a pair of "Keystone" 18" folded-horn subwoofers

I'd recommend moving the Khorns back to be within a 3-4 feet of the corners and move the center LSI/sub to be in-line with them.  This will give you perhaps another 1/2 octave of distributed bass without having to EQ low frequencies up. This will keep the woofer voice coils cool.  I'm not sure that you'll need any more pairs of Khorns for that space, unless you're planning to be playing well above 100 dB on the dance floor.  If so, then you can move two more Khorns to the rear corners and use the AVP approach (mentioned below) or use some sort of delay/attenuation on those rear control channels.

 

How are you going to mix/balance the different channels from your stereo source?  For instance, how are you going to blend that center channel?  [A cheap way to do it: use a fairly good A/V preamp to drive the channels across the front--since it will give you the most flexibility in matrix fill options.  If you would like to use more than two Khorns and the LSI/sub, then the AVP will help out (for instance...using an "all channel stereo" mode for the extra side channels) without having to run two loudspeakers on one amplifier channel. If the AVP has room correction software such as Audyssey or YPAO, etc., you can balance things a bit hours before the event starts.  Khorns oftentimes have a bit of boom in the 90-190 Hz band--dependent on room placement--that a good AVP can smooth out.] 

 

If you instead have access to rented pro mixing gear and venue balancing software/analyzers/mixers, that might work even better--especially if using DSP loudspeaker processors, etc., but it's quite a bit more complex to set up.  This type of gear can control the in-room frequency response from each channel with more control granularity, and provide even more visibility into what is occurring acoustically in-room. 
 

Are you using good infrasonic filters for the turntable input channel to the phono preamp?  If so that will decrease the need for extra amplifier power to track record warps which can really sap the amplifier channel power if not controlled well. It also keeps the woofer voice coils much cooler.

 

Chris

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Great feedback everyone- apologies if the illustration is a bit deceptive- the grey boxes on the left and right sides represent columns that protrude from the walls. The speakers at the top are there for size reference. 

 

More detail on the setup- Currently have a passive distribution box that can attenuate speaker pairs. Amplification is provided by DSP-enabled power amps that have crossover, eq and delay capabilities. It's simple to run any of the channels as combined mono. Turntables are very well isolated, but the suggestion of an infrasonic filter is a good one.  Again, all the Khorns are tucked in to false corners, with a riser under the tophat to bring treble above the crowd (see attached pic for the original David Mancuso solution using the PWK false corner design). The goal is not for loudness, but for a total surround effect. 

 

For reference, the original Loft NYC setup runs a L/C/R set of klipschorns at the back of the room and 2 more left and right pairs in the middle and front, attenuated to run at ~95-100db in the center of the dance floor when everything is working. An appropriate delay was applied to each pair, but in practise, not much of the L/C/R setup could be heard at the front of the room when full of people.  Attaching an updated image of the last setup in the same room. The change this time is that i have 6 more klipschorns available. Was intrigued (albeit partly from an "has this ever been done before?!!" angle) if there would be any perceived benefit to more speakers, or if I might just be creating trouble. 

 

Thanks again for the warm welcome. 

 

 

David-Mancuso1.jpg

Layout2.jpg

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At least with the risers, people will have a harder time placing drinks on top of the speakers!

 

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My only suggestion would be to lower the risers for the top hats by at least 18". With the top hats that far above the dancers' heads you'll drive those sitting at the tables right out of the room. If you're using 3 pairs of K-horns as in your second diagram you don't need to worry as much about each pair projecting very far into the crowd.

 

I like the setup in your second diagram, which would allow you to run each stack at a reduced level. If you have 3 more pairs of K-horns and artificial corners at your disposal you could add an additional woofer next to each full stack, and low-pass those at around 120Hz for extra bass punch.

 

Oh, and an infrasonic filter for the turntable signal is an absolute MUST! With a –3dB point between 20Hz and 30Hz, 24dB/octave.

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6 hours ago, Blackrapids said:

For reference, the original Loft NYC setup runs a L/C/R set of klipschorns at the back of the room and 2 more left and right pairs in the middle and front, attenuated to run at ~95-100db in the center of the dance floor when everything is working.

I think there is a thread about that on this forum somewhere.

 

It seems to me they put the Khorns one standing normally and a second Khorn upside down on the first.

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I would just use 4 K-horns, with false corners, but back against the walls and against a column nearest the corner of the dance floor.  I would also use the Sub against a wall near the center of the dance floor space.  You should not need any timing correction that way.  Look at the midrange (squawker) horn as a floodlight with a 90 degree horizontal spread.  "Light" the floor.  Leave the tables "unlit". 

 

If you must overwhelm the dancers, add a pair of K-horns midwall along the side of the dance floor (push the sub aside a little bit). 

 

One K-horn can hit 109 dB peaks (about 94 dB average) at 16 feet, the center of the dance floor.  An additional K-horn and amp channel adds 6 dB (!).  Another pair adds 6 more.  Four can hit 121 dB peak (106 avg)!!!  Muscle amp for the sub!!! 

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I would try to:

  • Eliminate the three speakers nearest the tables, to give the people at the tables a break!  Or, if you want to use almost all (i.e., -1) of the speakers shown, eliminate the one center nearest the tables and tuck in the two artificial corners nearest the tables into the corners formed by the columns nearest the tables, on the sides of the columns away from the tables and toward the stage end of the room.  That way, people can choose the high intensity or low intensity end of the room, but most on the dance floor will still get a very immersive experience.
  • Since you have artificial corners, use Khorns as center channel speakers as well.
  • As others have said, put speakers near a wall for more reinforcement of the bass.  At what frequency are you crossing over to the subs?  Are the subs powered?  What are the specs? 
  • I'd try stereo (on an av pre/pro, "Multi Channel Stereo" or "All Channel Stereo,"  sending Left to all speakers on the left, Right to all speakers on the right, and Center to the centers).  That could be hypnotic, especially as dancers move to different areas of the dance floor, getting different perspectives. 
  • Get there hours early; double your estimate of the time it will take to set up and balance everything.  Setting up the night before is ideal.  If you must set up the same day, take a large sweat towel for each crew member. 
  • Will you have any problem with people nearby calling the police?  Hopefully only audiophile officers will be on duty.

Be sure to let us know how it goes.  It will probably be awesome, as the kids say.

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On 8/24/2017 at 2:36 PM, Blackrapids said:

Great feedback everyone- apologies if the illustration is a bit deceptive- the grey boxes on the left and right sides represent columns that protrude from the walls. The speakers at the top are there for size reference. 

 

More detail on the setup- Currently have a passive distribution box that can attenuate speaker pairs. Amplification is provided by DSP-enabled power amps that have crossover, eq and delay capabilities. It's simple to run any of the channels as combined mono. Turntables are very well isolated, but the suggestion of an infrasonic filter is a good one.  Again, all the Khorns are tucked in to false corners, with a riser under the tophat to bring treble above the crowd (see attached pic for the original David Mancuso solution using the PWK false corner design). The goal is not for loudness, but for a total surround effect. 

 

For reference, the original Loft NYC setup runs a L/C/R set of klipschorns at the back of the room and 2 more left and right pairs in the middle and front, attenuated to run at ~95-100db in the center of the dance floor when everything is working. An appropriate delay was applied to each pair, but in practise, not much of the L/C/R setup could be heard at the front of the room when full of people.  Attaching an updated image of the last setup in the same room. The change this time is that i have 6 more klipschorns available. Was intrigued (albeit partly from an "has this ever been done before?!!" angle) if there would be any perceived benefit to more speakers, or if I might just be creating trouble. 

 

Thanks again for the warm welcome. 

 

 

David-Mancuso1.jpg

Layout2.jpg

Cosmo Murphy who worked.Loft parties with Mancuso works with Klipsch, her husband runs a multi Khorn setup in the UK which I believe was judged loudest systen in UK?

 

RIP Mr. Mancuso

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On 9/1/2017 at 0:53 AM, chriswhotakesphotos said:

I want to go to that party! What kind of music will you be playing?

Jazz, disco, funk and tasteful house, etc. Generally, music with positive energy and proven dance floor function!

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http://assets.klipsch.com/files/Dope_751205_v15n5.pdf

 

Note that the height of the false corner only needs to be as high as the bass bin.  It also doesn't need to be as thick as the one shown in the Dope from Hope article.

 

MVC-003S9.JPG

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