Forte III bi wire

[buf]

Does the Forte III benefit from bi wiring ?

[CECAA850]

27 minutes ago, buf said:

Does the Forte III benefit from bi wiring ?

I don't think any speaker benefits from bi-wiring unless the original single wire is grossly undersized.

[wvu80]

Hi buf, welcome to the forums.

 

What did your Klipsch dealer say when you asked him?

[JohnJ]

 

45 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

I don't think any speaker benefits from bi-wiring unless the original single wire is grossly undersized.

 

Carl you probably realize that I respect you but.... Have you tried it?
From a good amp/receiver it will increase total rms wattage to your speakers.  My 80w/channel increased by 50% to 120wpc. Not using wimpy wiring either it is 12 gauge mass wise.

That's the only cold hard fact you'll get some to admit as factual.
Could be just the increase in wattage at say the 11:00 level on the potentiometer, but using channel "B" for the Bass and "A" for the high frequency on my Forte IIIs does make a difference.

I cannot quantify it, but I like `em bi-wired. If using twisted wiring be careful not to short anything. RTFM!

[CECAA850]

18 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Carl you probably realize that I respect you but.... Have you tried it?
From a good amp/receiver it will increase total rms wattage to your speakers.  My 80w/channel increased by 50% to 120wpc. Not using wimpy wiring either it is 12 gauge mass wise.

Yes I've tried it.  No increase in clarity or SPL.

 

How exactly does bi-wiring increase your receivers output wattage?

[avguytx]

Logistically, it's impossible to increase your power by 50% just by bi-wiring.  There's just not that much resistance in good wire going to the speakers.  I was a rep for Esoteric Audio for 9 years and spent 20+ years on the retail side of home A/V and car audio and never did any manufacturer ever tell us that there was an increase in power by bi-wiring....only when bi-amped.  They just said it was a great tool for selling more wire.  Noel Lee always preached that as to sell more cable.  Maybe that's why he's worth $100+ million and I'm not.

 

You'd have to show me measurements where you can get a 50% increase by simply bi-wiring.  Otherwise, I don't buy into it.  Been there, done that, tested it, got the T-shirt.

[JohnJ]

Speakers A for HF

Speakers B for LF

I use A & B both to run one set of speakers. That's what bi-wiring is.

The way my amp works it only puts out 60wpc when using both sets of outputs. 60 x 4 is 120 to the right and 120 to the left channel.

 

@CECAA850 man, I'm surprised it did nothing for you, makes a difference here!

[JohnJ]

18 minutes ago, avguytx said:

Logistically, it's impossible to increase your power by 50% just by bi-wiring.  There's just not that much resistance in good wire going to the speakers.  I was a rep for Esoteric Audio for 9 years and spent 20+ years on the retail side of home A/V and car audio and never did any manufacturer ever tell us that there was an increase in power by bi-wiring....only when bi-amped.  They just said it was a great tool for selling more wire.  Noel Lee always preached that as to sell more cable.  Maybe that's why he's worth $100+ million and I'm not.

 

You'd have to show me measurements where you can get a 50% increase by simply bi-wiring.  Otherwise, I don't buy into it.  Been there, done that, tested it, got the T-shirt.

Not impossible but simple. One set of outputs to run one set of speakers vs bi-wired using two sets of outputs to run one set of speakers.

 

[CECAA850]

That's bi-amping.

[JohnJ]

8 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

That's bi-amping.

No way

Thought bi-amping was two huge mono-amps one for the right, one for the left.

No wonder everybody here has given me so much grief politely when I talked about this. 

 

Cambridge over there in the free-for-all-eu looks at it like me but they spell color colour too.

Heck Audio Advisor looks at it the same way I have also.

[JohnJ]

So here bi-wiring is running two sets of cables off of one speaker output terminal set.

That's just a ridiculous plan. Get better wire.(period)

[avguytx]

Our thoughts exactly.

 

Bi-amping can be done with an A/V receiver maybe to feed 2 sets of terminals on a speaker and, effectively, that's bi-amping.  Or using two amps, of course.  Running two sets of speaker wires from a speaker to one pair of output terminals on an amplifier is.....bi-wiring.

 

There's different kinds of bi-amping and I forget which is which....such as vertical and horizontal, I think.  You could have 2 of the same amps where one is bridged to left channel and one is bridged to right (unless they are both already mono.  You could have a small tube amp on the high side of the speakers and a slightly larger tube amp, or solid state, on the low side of the speakers.  You could take 4 mono amps and have one run each of the LF and HF sections.  Etc, etc.  That's "quad amping" in a sense.  haha

[JohnJ]

Four channels into a pair of Forte IIIs sounds fantastic @buf no matter what you call it!

[Woofers and Tweeters]

23 minutes ago, avguytx said:

Bi-amping can be done with an A/V receiver maybe to feed 2 sets of terminals on a speaker and, effectively, that's bi-amping.

How does an AV rate the watts? And are those watts divided when more speakers are added?

[JohnJ]

1 minute ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

How does an AV rate the watts? And are those watts divided when more speakers are added?

I do know that differs, my new amp I listed above it's in the manual. My RX1100 does 125/ch into two but four or six speakers it does 100/channel and cranks out the heat when you're rocking!

[avguytx]

7 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

How does an AV rate the watts? And are those watts divided when more speakers are added?

 

Depends on the manufacturer and how they're rating them.  When I was the rep for Onkyo/Integra from 2001 to 2009, we were told to take their ratings with a grain of salt and with most any Japanese manufacturer.  None of their average receivers ((up to $2k or so) would produce rated power at full bandwidth all channels driven.  Or if they did, the THD was way up there and the potential for letting Puff the Magic Dragon out was imminent.  It's mainly how much any particular channels need with most receivers and where it delegates the power.  Unless you have one of those nice multi-channel amps that have 7 (for example) discrete output stages...that's another story.  I rep'd Sunfire, too.  Those 5 and 7 channel amps would rock for surround as do other manufacturers out there.  NAD did a pretty good job with their ratings running multi-channel, too.  Better than the happy average Onkyo & Integras.

[CECAA850]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-wiring

[avguytx]

In essence, it's basically removing those little jumper straps and adding on a bunch of wire to complete the connection.  haha

[avguytx]

37 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Four channels into a pair of Forte IIIs sounds fantastic @buf no matter what you call it!

 

 

Again, in reality, you're just running 80 wpc @ 8-ohms to them.  I looked up your amp....it's 80wpc @ 8-ohms and 120wpc @ 4-ohms.  You aren't dropping the impedance to 4-ohms since the crossovers in the F3's are still doing their job of dividing power up to the appropriate drivers.  But you're not hurting anything for what you're doing....just no real gain overall.

 

The Forte 3's are 8-ohm.

[JohnJ]

5 minutes ago, avguytx said:

 

Again, in reality, you're just running 80 wpc @ 8-ohms to them.  I looked up your amp....it's 80wpc @ 8-ohms and 120wpc @ 4-ohms.  You aren't dropping the impedance to 4-ohms since the crossovers in the F3's are still doing their job of dividing power up to the appropriate drivers.  But you're not hurting anything for what you're doing....just no real gain overall.

 

The Forte 3's are 8-ohm.

"Wish you were here" I'd switch them from one output to two with the pot at just 9:00. There IS a difference to be heard. Sorry that you can't accept this from so far away.