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Newbie: RP-150M/250C are too bright, need to tame the tweeter


Florin Andrei

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I bought a pair of Klipsch RP-150M and an RP-250C to replace my very old and pretty bad speakers. These are the first Klipsch speakers I've ever owned.

 

The new boxes seem good enough to me. I run the bass through an old Cambridge Soundworks cube, so I can't speak about that. Mid frequecies are decent. But there's one thing: the tweeters seem a little shouty, a little too loud.

 

I've posted about this on another forum and about a million people replied it's a known problem. Well, I wish I did more research. I just didn't know. But I want to keep these speakers if I could tame the tweeters a bit.

 

Would it be okay to open the boxes and place a resistor in series with the tweeter? Perhaps I should try different values, like 1 ohm, 2 ohms, etc. The resistor should be able to dissipate several watts.

 

Or is there a better procedure for this?

 

I don't want to mess with tone control in my Yamaha RX-V381 av receiver. I like to keep things flat at that level, and I usually disable all effects, equalizer, etc. I also use the headphone output on the receiver, and I like the sound I get from it now.

 

I really do believe the tweeters are a little too loud, call me weird but that's how they sound to my ears. But I like everything else about these speakers, so that's what I want to fix.

 

Is there a guide somewhere online for how to open these boxes?

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The lower line Yamaha's (even the old models) tended to play poorly with Klipsch - IMO.  I moved from an RX-V530 to a 730 for that very reason actually.  The V381 is an entry level Yamaha - so that might be a contributing factor into it.  That being said, there are better ways to accomplish what you're wanting.  There are things you can place over the horn - if I remember right - that would help tame it a bit more.  Time seems to break them in too.

 

Someone should chime in with more info on the modification - I never had issues, because I ended up moving AVR's around/upgrading.

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Welcome to the community! 

 

I have no experience with those particular models, but sometimes horn loaded tweeters are perceived as too bright.  I'd hate to see you open the boxes if it would interfere with your ability to return them (or sell them).  Someone with more technical knowledge than I have will no doubt advise you as to whether your intention to pad down the tweeter will cause any problems with that particular crossover, and whether it would be better to use an L pad or a T pad, or whatever, BUT I'd try something less invasive to start with.  Here are links you may find interesting, but I do not in any way vouch for them!   https://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express/b/ref=w_bl_hsx_s_ce_web_2530100011?ie=UTF8&node=2530100011&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Parts+Express          http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/attenuators/t-pad-attenuator.html

 

Over brightness or shoutieness is sometimes said of horn tweeters by Klipsch, JBL, EV, all the way back to Altec, University and Tannoy.  I have never found this to be a problem (except with cheap off-brands).  As to those who said it is a known problem with those speakers -- maybe -- but, there are leagues of horn haters online.  Sometimes the problem is one of those mentioned below:

  • One of balance of bass and treble, especially when replacing a speaker with rolled off or veiling treble with one with flat or more energetic treble.  Can you turn up the gain on the  Cambridge Soundworks cube subwoofer, or put it against a wall, or put it in a corner?  Have you done a subwoofer crawl?  What were your old speakers?
  • Distortion or imbalance in certain recordings that is revealed by the new speakers, but masked by the old ones.  Have you tried a wide variety of recordings?  Blu-rays made from recent movies are usually quite good, as are most SACDs and DVD-As.  Beware CDs from the early days of the medium, or those that are mastered into hash and knife in the ear (see Chris-A's posts on home remastering to correct for poorly mastered recordings).
  • Some Yamahas (and some others) are  rather bright, and the Klipsches may be revealing that. 

Good Luck!

 

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Quote

There are things you can place over the horn

 

I've no doubt it would work. But it seems, I don't know, improvised.

 

I've just noticed what seem to be Allen bolts (or similar) on the panel where the wires are connected. If I remove that panel, is the crossover located behind it?

 

Once I have access to the filters, it should be trivial to test a few resistors with the tweeter.

 

Quote

 

Excellent. That would preserve the impedance. It's better than my single-resistor ad-hoc scheme. Thank you for the idea.

 

It's been many years since I've done circuit design. Obviously there are many things I've forgot.

 

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there are leagues of horn haters online

 

So I've noticed. I'm not a hater. I just think the tweeter sound is a bit more conspicuous than what my ears would expect.

 

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balance of bass and treble

 

The bass and the mid-frequencies are balanced with each other pretty well. That was the case also with the old speakers. It's the treble that's above both mid and bass, with the new speakers.

 

Raising the bass would make the whole frequency response V-shaped. I don't like that sound. I'll give it a try tomorrow, but I'm skeptical.

 

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Distortion or imbalance in certain recordings that is revealed by the new speakers, but masked by the old ones

 

Yep, I'm aware of that phenomenon, I see it all the time with my headphones. And yes, the new speakers are not always too bright. In some cases they sound close to normal, just leaning a little forward. But in most cases they sound too much TSSSS, TSSSS.

 

Like I said, I own a pair of Grado phones, and these speakers sound just like that. Very detailed and revealing, but tiresome after a while, and artificial-like. The kind of sound that makes you hate cymbals.

 

I would also rate it a bit... I don't know... harsh? Metallic? Perhaps I'm imagining things.

 

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What were your old speakers?

 

I bought a Teac av receiver, with speakers and subwoofer, the cheapest thing at Costco in 2000 A.D. The subwoofer died first, many years ago, so it got replaced with the Cambridge Soundworks cube (which is still very good). The receiver started conking out gradually, so I've replaced it last year. And a few weeks ago I decided I hated the remaining speakers - little cheap boxes whose main design constraint was cost effectiveness. So yeah, they were bad. One of them was buzzing at high volume.

 

But I'm not a stranger to high quality speakers. I had a mini recording studio at home 12 years ago or so, complete with mixing table and studio monitors. I still remember that sound. It was extremely detailed, but not fatiguing, and flat enough and neutral.

 

And, of course, I am very familiar with the tonal balance of several species of high end headphones - but one could argue phones and speakers are too different for a direct comparison (personally I'm not sure the differences are too radical for a comparison to be allowed).

 

I know flat sound when I hear it. This is not it. That's what's bothering me.

 

Quote

Some Yamahas (and some others) are  rather bright, and the Klipsches may be revealing that.

 

Even with all EQs and tone controls turned off?

 

Well, I guess it's possible. I'll keep that one on the list as I'm trying different things with the whole system.

 

The headphone output on the receiver seems very neutral. Even in my best phones, I don't really have any major complaints there.

Edited by Florin Andrei
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Couple of questions and ideas before you start jacking around with the crossovers:

 

1) When you said you "run the bass through an old Cambridge Soundworks Cube," you're using the SW-pre-out on your Yamaha, correct?  (Not actually running speaker wires to your sub and then from your sub to your RP-150M's)  Just want to be sure.

 

2) Have you adjusted your subwoofer volume and crossover point after installing the new speakers?  I know you don't want to make a V with your sound, but the new speakers are probably more efficient than your old ones and your sub will need to increase its volume to match.  Crossover point might need to be changed too.  See #4 below.

 

3) I know you said 'all eq and tone controls are turned off' but double check to make sure DSP effects are off and there's no funky playback settings configured for your source-input.

 

4)  What about YPAO?  Did you re-run it with the new speakers?  It's unclear from the manual if YPAO is disabled with "straight" mode, so make sure YPAO has been run with your new speakers and/or they are set properly - levels, large/small, distances etc.

 

5) Speaker positioning - how do you have them set up?

 

 

'Straight mode' appears to be the most direct sound option for this receiver.  It should disable your SW and only output 2-channel sound to your fronts.  However it appears like some sound processing is still done in straight-mode - like YPAO and speaker-settings - so there really is no way to absolutely turn off all EQ and tone controls on this unit.

 

 

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@pbphoto Yes, I'm using the proper subwoofer output on the receiver. Since I use the YPAO, it makes sense to let the receiver handle filtering and relative volume levels.

 

Running YPAO was the first thing I did after installing the new speakers. I usually re-run it after any significant changes in positioning, since it's pretty quick.

 

Front left/right (150M) are close to the wall, up near the ceiling; one is on a tall and narrow bookshelf, the other is supported by a bracket on the wall. They are angled left/right towards the couch in the center, but they are vertical; I am NOT leaning them forward towards the couch. I have removed the base that comes with these speakers - they are actually leaning back when sitting on that base, IIRC.

 

Center (250C) is below the TV screen at knee height. It's sitting on a horizontal shelf below the screen; I am NOT angling it up towards the top of the couch.

 

Subwoofer is on the floor next to the TV on the right. Not quite close to the wall, maybe an elbow length from it. That place seems to provide a fairly uniform level of bass in most places in the room (more or less).

 

Despite the vast differences in height, center and FL/FR sound about the same. There is some difference, albeit pretty small, when I sit down on the couch vs standing up, as I am moving closer to the axis of one speaker or another. But I really have to listen for it to tell. The sound changes a little when I move off the couch, way out to the right, but again it's not a huge difference.

 

I'll check all the sound settings on the receiver again. Maybe something escaped my attention.

Edited by Florin Andrei
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The reference premier stuff is actually much more tame than previous Klipsch models, they were purposely made to be more laid back.  If the tweeters in general seem way too bright, then in my opinion it's not the speakers doing it.  Turn that room correction off and see if you like it better.  

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15 hours ago, Florin Andrei said:
Quote

Some Yamahas (and some others) are  rather bright, and the Klipsches may be revealing that.

 

Even with all EQs and tone controls turned off?

 

Well, I guess it's possible. I'll keep that one on the list as I'm trying different things with the whole system.

 

Yes, but maybe not yours.  I had a Yamaha power amp and a Luxman at the same time, and the Luxman seemed smooth as silk, and the Yamaha a bit strident, either with or without tone control EQ.  My NADs are less bright than the Yamaha.  I still use one channel of the Yamaha for a Right surround, and it is harsher than the NAD powered Left surround.  No, I haven't switched the speakers or room location, so I can't be sure.  The Yamaha channel seems harsher on pink noise, as well as on music.  My ancient tube Dyna amps also never gave offense. 

 

Since your speakers are fairly close to the ceiling (plaster?) you could try putting a bit of  absorption on the ceiling just at the point the tweeter sound would bounce off the ceiling and to you on the couch (use the mirror test).  That's the equivalent of someone putting a rug where a floor standing speaker's sound would bounce off the floor.

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Flipping the speakers isn't a bad idea if they are close to the ceiling unless you have them on their side.

Since at least the 150m's have bi-wire posts, you could remove the straps and put a resistor in line with the highs or an lpad configuration in place.

 

I too find many Yamaha are not a good match for such speakers unless you like tilted up highs.  Some folks do....

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