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Some basic Scott 299C Questions


ksquared

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On 10/2/2017 at 7:10 PM, ksquared said:

OK, think of me as just landing from Pluto, not knowing much of anything about the tube amps/pre-amps.  I've done some research, and it seems the 299C is rated mighty excellent.  Now, not to debate, but I have a few questions.

 

1)  Why is the 299C so spectacular?  And is the 299D even better?  Why didn't they keep going with the 299E?

2)  Is the 299C a pre-amp, and thus needing an amp, or can it work on its own?

3)  Will the 299C work with only two speakers, or can you have the center speaker and a subwoofer with it too?

4)  Are there any Klipsch speakers it wouldn't be good with or work properly with?

5)  is there a modern tube amp/pre-amp that is just as well-respected?

6)  Are the tube amps only used with playing vinyl records?

 

Hopefully there are some patient people out there, as I know these are ridiculously basic questions, and I appreciate any help.

 

 

 

1) If you were to take a pole of all vintage scott owners you'd find just about all of them prefer the model they own. In the end the basic sound of all models is more similar then different (IF ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL). I usually advice folks to choose the model by the cosmetic condition not the model number. For example if you have to choose between a 299A in near perfect condition or a 299C in rough condition with both being similar in price buy the 299A. 

2) 299C is a integrated amplifier. All you need to do is add source like CD players, tuners and turn table.

3) The amplifier can power your 2 main left and right speakers. It also has a mono center channel  output signal that can be sent to any powered speaker you choose like a center channel with its own mono amplifier to power it or a powered subwoofer.

4) it will power just about any Klipsch speaker vintage or modern.

5) Lots of them..

6) Tube amps are used for everything under the sun sound wise. 

 

 

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On 10/5/2017 at 1:57 PM, derrickdj1 said:

Time to just stop the back and forth.  The bottom line is if you buy one of these old amps, it needs a through going over for safety by a qualified tech.  The other option is get a new amp with a warranty and avoid the costly restoration process.

 

Yes, I am a new guy here, and definitely don't want to cause or be in the middle of ANY controversy between people.  In my opinion, all of the people here are helping others, and many have knowledge of these systems that are in the stratosphere.  I don't know that I'm much above sea level here.

 

The story about how I got interested in the Scott 299 amp is that there was another thread, with huge controversy, about a new tube amp that was inspired by the 299.  I figured if it was inspired by the 299, why not try to get the real deal?  I believe the price of the restored 299 is less than the new one also.  However, as derrickdj1 said, they are old, they've got to be restored by somebody who knows what they're doing, and the restoration is costly.

 

And yes, Craig at NOS Valves is part of my research, as on eBay just recently there was a Scott 299C restored by him. 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/H-H-Scott-299C-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-Craig-Ostby-of-NosValves-Restoration-/122722092729?hash=item1c92ce86b9%3Ag%3A1xgAAOSwK89ZxojC&nma=true&si=35anb8WC52I3htR7ngLnk501hgM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It was even close by, I could have picked it up.  I even tried to bid on it, but my bid never even made it in as others were bidding higher and higher so quickly.  And to buy from somebody named "honorable_bob" seemed to be pretty safe.  I looked on the website for NOS Valves, and the one suggested by Maynard, Ken at aeaaudio.com, and both Ken and Craig I'm sure are 100% excellent at what they're doing.  However, everything they're listing is "SOLD," so that doesn't help for somebody like me.  I can't purchase one and hope to have it restored, I don't know enough if it is good or not, and have it end up costing in the stratosphere.  I guess it could be months and months too, although I am patient for incredible quality.

 

And, embarrassing to admit, I'm so void of knowledge in this area that my idea was to be able to combine and have a tube amp to be both a stereo output for the phonograph and able to do the 5.1 surround sound from modern movies.  The only thing I've found is the "Decware ULTRA" which is priced much higher that I was hoping to spend, but Steve Deckert was also highly praised by Maynard, who I have to say is a great guy and appreciated in my opinion for his willingness to help.  Now, if that ULTRA isn't expensive enough (not meant to be taken negatively either, I understand though that high quality costs money), it seems that you have to also add another five tube amps in addition, which I don't understand why but I'm sure is the way physics requires it to be.

 

So, with NOSValves answering my initial questions, I've got more information, but I'm still not sure about what to do.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ksquared said:

Yes, I am a new guy here, and definitely don't want to cause or be in the middle of ANY controversy between people. 

You didn't cause any, that happens on it's on around here.  Was it a full moon last night?  It is your post and you have every right to keep it on track.  I like your high road approach.

 

 You keep asking away, and keep us all updated on how you are going to proceed and what you end up with.

 

I did the exact same thing you did, but about 15 years ago and with a vintage McIntosh preamp.  Found one in great condition,I had it restored and got many, many great years of enjoyment out of it.  It was a very fun and educational process.  

 

I'm glad I went that route to get into tube equipment.  From there, when I "upgraded" along the way I knew what I preferred,  what to listen for etcl. Most importantly it helped me understand what I could hear, and couldn't here, in other equipment and whether it was worth the price.

 

Once you get that integrated you can then start switching out tube brands and see if you can tell the difference between brand X and Y, and if you can, is it worth the cost.

 

If you love the sound the way it is you are golden, if it leads you to want to explore other stuff, that's a great journey too.

 

Glad you posted, sorry there was a little off topic diversion, but glad to see the usual great advice and suggestions.

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19 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

I would recommend that you call and talk with Craig, or call and talk with Ken, rather than rely on their websites.

That is very solid advice in my experience.  There is just no way those guys can keep up with updating their websites to keep up.  The stuff just doesn't sit around for long.

 

Travis

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Don't worry about any controversy... you certainly weren't the cause of anything!  Sometimes there is just old "stuff" going on that doesn't have much to do with your thread.

 

I can't imagine wanting tubes for home theater that much... unless I lived in a very cold climate and wanted the supplemental heat of 5 channels of tubes.  There are amps with pass throughs that will allow you to switch over from 2 channel to HT.  There are a few possibilities for combining a tube amp for 2 channel along with a HT amp but I think that is jumping too far ahead.  

 

Don't worry about missing the ebay auction either... those can get crazy high sometimes!  

 

Definitely call... these guys aren't spending time updating their websites!  Also, watch the garage sale here.  They come up sometimes but I get the feeling that people aren't letting them go as much anymore.  

 

You have a budget in mind?

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It is not usually feasible to use tubes for home theater purposes due to cost, among other things.  What some do is to set up a home theater system using SS gear, but have the front L and R speakers hooked to an inexpensive switch box to allow them to be used with a 2 channel tube amp for dedicated music listening when desired.  Sources can be switched to either system just as easily.  With a budget of only $1k  you definitely have limitations to deal with, and this is where the Chinese gear can work very much in your favor.  When I look at the cost of some of the latter I'm absolutely amazed at how much is offered for so little (I couldn't even buy the parts for such amps for that amount).  And, according to a friend who has worked on some of those amps, the quality is amazingly decent (and he's a perfectionist like me).  Lots for you to consider as you go along.  In the meantime, a detailed description of your listening room and seating position will be useful for getting some idea of the amount of power that you will need.

 

Maynard

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1 hour ago, tube fanatic said:

It is not usually feasible to use tubes for home theater purposes due to cost, among other things.  What some do is to set up a home theater system using SS gear, but have the front L and R speakers hooked to an inexpensive switch box to allow them to be used with a 2 channel tube amp for dedicated music listening when desired.  Sources can be switched to either system just as easily.  

 

Maynard

This is precisely what I do... though I do use the SS for 5.1 music. Having a solid state section/addition to my tube stage for 2 channel gives me the best of both worlds... though I choose to manually switch my wires instead of using a switch box (it takes about 15 seconds). This also allows me to listen to SS 2 channel if I so choose from time to time.

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Time to just stop the back and forth.  The bottom line is if you buy one of these old amps, it needs a through going over for safety by a qualified tech.  The other option is get a new amp with a warranty and avoid the costly restoration process.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also use a switch box and use the tube or SS amp for 2 ch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, derrickdj1 said:

Time to just stop the back and forth.  The bottom line is if you buy one of these old amps, it needs a through going over for safety by a qualified tech.  The other option is get a new amp with a warranty and avoid the costly restoration process.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also use a switch box and use the tube or SS amp for 2 ch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or a fully restored one...by a qualified

technician....that is known for their work...

 

And Derrick is absolutely correct..

but the new amp has to be known

for quality....and reputable dealership..

 

nosvalves is also correct...

all things must be equal...

and condition is everything...

 

it comes down to dollars and sense..

 

whether it's new , restored , or needing to be restored... 

 

I wish you the best in your journey...

to sonic bliss..

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3 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

The other option is get a new amp with a warranty and avoid the costly restoration process.

 

Good advice. I own a restored 299C and a new Silk Audio MS38SE which is a Yaqin MS-30L with a few changes. I enjoy them both, but the Yaqin more, because it is new well built with high quality parts, plenty enough power, sounds great with hopefully years of trouble free operation enjoyment, and beautiful looks in a lighted room and dark.

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Have you ever picked an apple from the fruit stand because it "looked" delicious only to take a bite and find that it was rotten internally?  I use that analogy because cosmetic condition of a piece of equipment only tells part of the story.  Back in the 60s my shop serviced countless pieces of audio equipment (as well as radios, TVs, and so on) which developed issues with potentiometers (typically volume controls), and wafer switches (input selectors, mode selectors, etc.).  And that's when they were relatively new (I'll say 3-10 years old as a broad range).  My point here is that if a person goes with vintage gear it's imperative that they accept the possibility of having to deal with the same, or other, issues 50-60 years later after countless additional hours of use.  The difficulty is obtaining a modern replacement for these controls which will fit in the chassis and have the correct shaft type and length.  There aren't many guys around any more who can take apart a potentiometer or wafer switch and actually perform a repair.  The labor to do this is costly because of how much time it can take.  Obviously that can occur with new gear as well so a value judgment has to be made.  But, being new, replacement parts are readily available.

 

Most higher power vintage tube amps or receivers use a push-pull output stage which requires readjustment if tubes are changed.  While not a big deal, some guys are not comfortable doing so.  Many of the modern push-pull units are self adjusting (auto biased) which eliminates those concerns.  If a person gets interested in tube rolling, it's a nice convenience to be able to just plug in the new tubes and listen.

 

I keep returning to the value of some of the Chinese equipment which is out there.  Take this amp for example:

 

https://www.dagogo.com/kingko-audio-ka-101-integrated-amplifier-review/

 

For about $800 you get something really good which was designed by an engineer with credentials to back up his work.  Not only does it look great, but the reviews about its sound are equally good.  Is it a better value than a Fisher or Scott amp which costs $400 to purchase and $700 to restore?  Only you can make that decision.  And, if you are able to spend a little more, and want to deal domestically, check out the incredible values from Bob Latino:

 

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm

 

 

 

Maynard  

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Actually, best "value" isn't always the top priority for everyone.  For some it might be the sound 1st cost 2nd (although still a big consideration) and asthetics 3rd... or some variation.  For every piece of vintage equipment I've picked up and sent in for a rebuild I know from the start that I likely overpaid and will never see the entirety of that money back.  What is that used Chinese (or whatever) amp going to be worth in 10, 20 or 40 years?  Perhaps it will prove over time that it is a piece that is worthy of preservation or perhaps not (I'm betting some of the Bob Latino amps will do OK).  Perhaps overpaying for that vintage equipment that was mint condition cosmetically but the insides hadn't been touched for 35 - 57 years had another motivation.  

 

I am a caretaker.  Some of this equipment might have been thrown on the trash pile had we not come along to invest in its preservation.  There is the risk that what I buy turns out to be no good for more than spare parts but somewhere out there is that other piece that needs that spare part.  So I get 2 or 300 less than the total I invested when it is sold.  What do I care when not only have I gotten to enjoy many hours of music and fun but I have played a part in others having the opportunity to have the same enjoyment?!  Turns out this is one of the cheaper hobbies.

 

Heh heh... try this argument out when you are trying to justify your next purchase to your spouse.     (queue sad pictures of classic amps sitting on garbage heaps... similar to commercials for abused animals or starving children...

What!?  too tacky?)

 

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I think the Scott 299C is an excellent amp, and a great value.  I have a 299C in my TV room system.   (I own more than 2 dozen tube amps, in 5 different systems.)   FWIW, my favorite integrated amp is the Scott 296.   The Fisher X-1000 is also excellent.  With that said, I could happily live with my 299C as my only amp.

 

Craig is an excellent tech, and I highly recommend his professional services.

 

I recently “upgraded” my basement system to multi-channel, employing vintage tube amps.    I mostly listen to classical music and opera.   Based on my observation that there is little content in the rear channels of multi-channel classical recordings (namely, natural hall sounds), I decided to combine the rear channels into a single channel.  I use one vintage tube amp for front L&R, and a separate vintage tube amp for center and rear.  My Oppo UDP-205 serves as a universal player, and effectively provides pre-amp functionality, including bass management.   Patch cords allow me to quickly select which amps I want to play. 

 

If you want more information about how I use vintage tube amps for surround-sound, see below.

 

-------------------------------

 

I don't have an AVR or pre-processor.  I have no interest in either.  Based on 45 years as a hi-fi hobbyist, I’ve concluded that I like tube amps.  I use the "pre-amp" functionality that is built into my Oppo UDP-205 universal player (and the 205’s high-quality DACs), and connect to two of my many tube amps in my basement system. 

 

I use the Oppo UDP-205’s 5.1 down-mix setting.   The Oppo 205’s “rear” connections that are used in a 5.1 configuration are labeled SL (Surround Left), and SR (Surround Right).

 

As part of my investigation, I connected a stereo amp and speakers to the SL (Surround Left) and SR (Surround Right), and heard little rear content (a small amount of “hall reverb”) - and little distinction between L&R - when listening to my multi-channel classical SACDs.  I therefore I decided (at least for now) that I’m not missing much by combining the rear channels.

 

Oppo has confirmed that there is no problem combining SL (Surround Left) and SR (Surround Right) via a Y cable.  (Yes – I’ve read the “Why not Y” article - however, for many years I’ve used a Y cable to combine stereo RCA line-level into mono, and had no problems.)   Because there is so little rear channel content on 5.1 classical SACDs, combining the rear channels sounds OK to me. 

 

The left, center, and right speakers are identical (Klipsch RF-7 II).

 

The rear is an earlier version of the same Klipsch speaker (RF-7). 

 

Subwoofers:  I recently added an SVS SB16-Ultra (i.e., the sealed cabinet model).  I also have a Klipsch R-115SW in this system.  (For most music, the RF-7II's don't need a sub.)

 

Following are the tube amps currently in my basement system.  (I’ve “tube rolled” these amps in order to voice them for the speakers.)

 

  • Scott 296 integrated amp, 7581 outputs (6L6GC equivalent)
  • Scott 272 integrated amp, 6CA7 / EL34
  • Scott 222 integrated amp  7189 / EL84
  • Fisher KX-200 integrated amp  7591
  • McIntosh MX110Z tuner/preamp
  • Scott LK150 power amp  LK150
  • Pilot SA-260 power amp  EL34
  • Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO power amp (single-ended pentode), currently equipped with 6L6GC

 

(I can connect the power amps direct to the Oppo, or run them through the MX110Z stereo pre-amp.)

 

One 2 channel amp drives the L&R speakers.  A second 2 channel amp drives the center and the single rear speaker.

 

I set levels (and tune) by ear.  (I am not interested in letting software perform equalization.)

 

Works great.  Sounds great.

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