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AVR uprade help?


mprowland

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My current Denon AVR-3802 has served me well with the Reference Series (RF-3, RC-3 and RS-3)for the past 15 years, but it's time to move on.  I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and would like some help with a new AVR recommendation.  I will say that I feel like an oddity with my listening preferences.  I like to listen to music in 5.1 and prefer my music to be "bright".  I'd like to stay away from the "tube" sound.  Tubes sound great, but they are a little too flat for me.  I'm looking for a "brighter" receiver with all of the newer features(bluetooth especially).  I basically want a receiver that will do the Cornwalls some justice and brighten them up a bit.  I don't see myself needing anything more than 5.1 and don't see the need for 4K.  I currently have HDMI's going straight to the LCD with audio being back fed via fiber.  My music to movie ratio is around 3:1.  I'd like to stay in the range of $500-$1000.  As always, thanks for any input...

 

Mark  

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Anything wrong with buying a new Denon or a Marantz--Same company.

I bought mine at accessories4less and it is a refub--you get a great price

they look and perform like new.

For the money you have, you can buy a very nice unit from them.

Take a look.

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On 10/13/2017 at 9:50 PM, rebuy said:

Anything wrong with buying a new Denon or a Marantz--Same company.

I bought mine at accessories4less and it is a refub--you get a great price

they look and perform like new.

For the money you have, you can buy a very nice unit from them.

Take a look.

Funny you should say this!  I was just about to start a new thread until I saw your response.  I just purchased a Denon AVR-x3300W from accessories4less a few days ago.  Last year this AVR went from $1000 to $600 presently(new).  I bought a factory refurb for $450.  The output specs looked similar to what I have now(within 5 watts/channel).  The unit sounds great but it just doesn't have the "in your face" max volume that I was looking for.  My old Denon 3802 is considerably louder.  I should have looked at the power supply rating rather than the skewed channel ratings.  I can send it back, but I'll lose $100 in doing so with shipping and restocking fees.  So my question is; Do I take the $100 hit or do I keep it and purchase an external amplifier for the L/R channels?  The new Denon does have pre-outs.  Does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonably priced 2-channel amplifier?  Does a cheaper AVR with an external amplifier equal a considerably more expensive AVR?  Thanks again for any input.....Mark             

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I don't know what "IN YOUR FACE" volume is.

I get plenty of volume from mine.

It is possible that your unit still was not repaired correctly.

Recheck your settings--channel levels, etc.

I have a Denon without preouts.

My AVR get loud enough to run you out of the house

and has quality sound, much better than a

Onkyo or a Yamaha.

Also make sure the ECO mode is OFF.

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14 minutes ago, mprowland said:

Does a cheaper AVR with an external amplifier equal a considerably more expensive AVR?  Thanks again for any input.....Mark   

You ask a lot of good questions I don't have many answers for.

 

I think the general consensus is that an inexpensive ~$500 AVR with pre-outs is not a good alternative to separates.  IMO an AVR is a convenient all-in-one with good but not great components and sound, and usually comes with a ton of features. 

 

I am being descriptive rather than critical as I am a big AVR fan and own a couple.  I used to have separates but I found an AVR has 90% of the performance with 10% of the complexity.  Nowdays if something doesn't have HDMI I avoid it unless there is no other choice.

 

In that $1000 price range you can get a pretty good AVR, such as the Marantz SR6011 but it comes with all those features you say you don't want and probably don't want to pay for.  In my experience  it's hard to find a good 5.1 AVR without all those features.  I am with you, I don't want Atmos, I don't want 7.1,  I only want 5.1.  Sometimes you have to get all those "features" because there's just not a lot of other options.

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40 minutes ago, mprowland said:

  I just purchased a Denon AVR-x3300W from accessories4less a few days ago.    So my question is; Do I take the $100 hit or do I keep it and purchase an external amplifier for the L/R channels?  The new Denon does have pre-outs. 

Just add an external stereo amp if you want more oooomph.

 

43 minutes ago, mprowland said:

Does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonably priced 2-channel amplifier?  Does a cheaper AVR with an external amplifier equal a considerably more expensive AVR?  Thanks again for any input.....Mark             

Yes.  Take a hard look at forum member Jeff Tubbs for sale ad for his Anthem MCA-20.  It is a wonderful amp that has plenty of power and is quiet as a mouse.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/172669-anthem-mca-20-arkansas-members/

 

Bill

 

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Thanks for the replies!!  I originally just gave up too quickly.  I took the receiver back out of the shipping box, hooked everything up and spent quite some time with it.  I was able to adjust and tweak everything to my liking.  5-channel audio is now great and the Cornwalls really come alive when in 2-channel.  I've always liked 5-channels for music for the "immersion factor".  I now realize that I'm immersed enough when the Cornwalls "wake up"!  Overall I'm happy with the sound.  I'm sure there's more to gain, but I'm happy for now.  In the future I may visit pre-amps and tubes....baby steps!

Thanks again!        

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24 minutes ago, mprowland said:

I took the receiver back out of the shipping box, hooked everything up and spent quite some time with it.

I was thinking the same thing that you needed to try it out for yourself first, with your stuff in your living room and see how it sounds to your ears.

 

I don't own a Denon but they are known to have a very compatible sound with Klipsch.  That 3300 has plenty of power and all the modern features, a good value at its price point.

 

I would say keep it unless there is a feature you can't live without, or unless it produces a fingernails on chalkboard sound that is a deal breaker.

 

I predict you and the 3300 will be happy together for a long time.  

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18 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I am with you, I don't want Atmos, I don't want 7.1,  I only want 5.1.  Sometimes you have to get all those "features" because there's just not a lot of other options.

This is why I like the Yamaha CS-A 5000, whose $3000 list price was too rich for my blood. They now have a 5001, which has added XLR outputs on the 2 separate subwoofer outputs, just like the other 11 channels, along with RCA connections, but the main difference is Atmos...................big deal. The 5001 lists for "only" $2500. Besides I only do 6.2 and could live with 5.1 if I had to without much sacrifice.

 

The 5000 can be had for about $1,200 refurb/new old stock or about $800 used on Ebay.

 

It's got the very best ESS Sabre 32-bit DAC chips for all channels, and a phono input for a turntable. Also the YPAO room correction feature is a must for any speaker!!

 

Power amps, especially class D ones can be had pretty cheap nowadays, so you can use as many channels as you like.

 

For me, it makes THE BEST bang for the buck for STEREO 2..2 or 2.1 (with remote) listening. I now own 2 of theses units because they are SO GOOD.

 

As a former owner of all the Onkyo AVR's with all the different Audyssey types for 2.1 or 5.1 listening from the same unit, this is clearly a cut above in so many ways.

 

Yes, I know we are talking AVR's here, but "movin' on up" this way will certainly put in your face whatever you desire!!

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On 10/6/2017 at 1:20 PM, mprowland said:

I basically want a receiver that will do the Cornwalls some justice and brighten them up a bit.

Have you upgraded your Network CAPACITORS to Dayton film types? You can get a bag full of 2 uF capcitors for about $10 shipped. I did this for my friend's 44 year old Cornwalls and he had to turn his treble control from 3 O'clock position to 12 O'clock position to keep the brightness he liked. Are you, perhaps barking up the wrong tree here? Just asking.

 

https://b2b.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dmpc-20-20uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-414

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Have you upgraded your Network CAPACITORS to Dayton film types? You can get a bag full of 2 uF capcitors for about $10 shipped.

Your link took me to a Parts Express Member Login for returning wholesale customers.

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2 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Your link took me to a Parts Express Member Login for returning wholesale customers.

just type in the part number 027-414 (5% tolerance)

 

027-214 is the 1% tolerance version, which is more money, but my measurements show the cheaper version is usually off by less than 2%. Speaker voice coils are usually off by 10% so will swamp out capacitor differences either way.

 

So to be back on topic, upgrading CAPACITORS will make the greater difference in the PRESENCE of midrange and TWEETER detail way more than arguing which AVR is better or lacking. IOW, it will improve sound WAY more than switching brands of AVR ever could and regardless of whether you switch or keep what you have.

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5 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Have you upgraded your Network CAPACITORS to Dayton film types? You can get a bag full of 2 uF capcitors for about $10 shipped. I did this for my friend's 44 year old Cornwalls and he had to turn his treble control from 3 O'clock position to 12 O'clock position to keep the brightness he liked. Are you, perhaps barking up the wrong tree here? Just asking.

 

https://b2b.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dmpc-20-20uf-250v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-414

The crossovers have been recently upgraded with Dayton caps.  I've thought about getting the few extra parts and converting them to "Type B-2" just to see what the difference is.  Otherwise, I'm fairly happy with the way it sounds now.  Thanks for the suggestion though!

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59 minutes ago, mprowland said:

The crossovers have been recently upgraded with Dayton caps.  I've thought about getting the few extra parts and converting them to "Type B-2" just to see what the difference is.  Otherwise, I'm fairly happy with the way it sounds now.  Thanks for the suggestion though!

Well, first things first, right? Now work on the other stuff. A B-2 Network mostly rolls off the woofer at second order instead of first order and improves the phase response. Measurable but not audible to anyone. It's easily reversed if you change your mind. I would try just one channel to test. Get a mono source then go back and forth with the speakers right next to each other to see which one you prefer.

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On 10/17/2017 at 4:56 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Well, first things first, right? Now work on the other stuff. A B-2 Network mostly rolls off the woofer at second order instead of first order and improves the phase response. Measurable but not audible to anyone. It's easily reversed if you change your mind. I would try just one channel to test. Get a mono source then go back and forth with the speakers right next to each other to see which one you prefer.

If there is no discernible difference between the two, is it even worth the effort to convert them over to B-2?  Thanks for any input!

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On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 2:05 PM, mprowland said:

I just purchased a Denon AVR-x3300W from accessories4less a few days ago.  Last year this AVR went from $1000 to $600 presently(new).  I bought a factory refurb for $450.  The output specs looked similar to what I have now(within 5 watts/channel).  The unit sounds great but it just doesn't have the "in your face" max volume that I was looking for.  My old Denon 3802 is considerably louder.  I should have looked at the power supply rating rather than the skewed channel ratings. 

Fwiw, I am still using a Denon AVR-3803 in a larger workout room's 5.1 system and feel the difference between your AVR-3802 and the x3300 is the power supply--If I am remembering correctly both the AVR-2802/3803 were rated to drive 4 Ohm speakers and my guess is if you look in the owners manual of the x3300 it will caution against using lower than 8 Ohm speakers (especially on the surrounds and center).

 

Regardless, sometime between when ours and the new Denon models came out their number designation changed and less powerful amps were put in similar models than were before....Then again, on AVS we also were told (By Denon Rep) that the switching and current delivery had improved and that seems true as well. I started with the Denon AVR-4802R/4806 and now 4311ci and all 3 have met the current demands of our Klipsch Library Home Theater, listed below. :emotion-44:

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16 hours ago, mprowland said:

If there is no discernible difference between the two, is it even worth the effort to convert them over to B-2?  Thanks for any input!

I would never say that there is no discernible difference. I would say there is, otherwise, Klipsch would not have gone to a B2. What I would ASK is: Is there a discernible difference to YOU! The only way to know for sure with your EARS is to try the A/B test I suggested. But knowing how most people are, very few will simply try it as suggested and never KNOW for sure for their own ears and ROOM. This begs the question, how badly do you want to find out? If not, you can just keep getting a million internet "opinions" without measurement or personal experience and still enjoy an older Cornwall. No harm, no foul.

 

PS: My apologies for turning an AVR thread into a Yamaha Pre-Pro and Cornwall thread, but like any other endeavor involving Klipsch electro-acoustic transducers, you cant talk about the performance of individual components without consider the ENTIRE system, especially the room!

 

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I have used a Yamaha AVR for years with my 7.1  with Cornwall for fronts and it sound great 130X7 (i wish)but  the Denon TOTL AVR seem have better power supplies as most bech test really well with ALL speakers on. Plus I like the Audyssey my Onkyo TX-SR 805 (that fried after two years.) was  better (more adjustments)  then my 2008 Yamaha YAPO room correction feature. When my  RX-V 1900 finally fries I will upgrade to a ATMOS Denon with at least 130X 9 for my 7.1.2 for ATMOS. I use a klipsch C7 center between my Cornwalls and it is really close to being a Timber match with twin 8" woofers and 10" horn. 

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