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Heresy III + sub or Cornwall III


Staffan
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Hej

 

I need some advice. I have a rather small room, 4,4 m x 3,9 m (14,4 ft x 12,8 ft) and my listening position is aprox. 2,5 m (8,2 ft) from the speakers.

The Heresy III would fit best when it comes to size, but they will lack bass for my taste (my current speakers, ATC SCM19 v2, goes down to 54 Hz and sometimes I really feel that I want more/deeper bass). So with Heresy III it will have to be with a sub (which sub?) and that is a solution I'm not really fond of. The alternative is Cornwall III, but besides from being double up in price, they are really big. Maybe my listening position is to close for these speakers? I live in an apartment so I can't crank up the volume too much and usually listening at rather low volume. Horn speakers are good at low volumes, aren't they?

Which do you consider being the best choice?

 

(I hope you understand my bad English)

 

Best regards

Staffan

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Staffan

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Heresy + Sub is my answer.

 

1 hour ago, Staffan said:

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Do you have any special sub in mind? Should I stay with Klipsch?

What is your budget for this sub?  What is available in your geographic region of this world?

 

Bill

 

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Thanks for your welcoming🙂

 

@TomR

Except for being just above my budget, I think I would have a problem with the placement. I can't place the speakers in corners, they have to be placed not more than a feet from the backwall and aprox. 3 feet from the sidewalls.

 

@willland

Will I get a sub good enough for $900?

I'm from Sweden and quick check gave me; Klipsch, SVS, REL, Definite Technology, Yamaha, Monitor Audio, Focal, JBL, Triangle, Canton, ELAC, Emotiva, HECO, XTZ, Velodyne, Revel, Audio Pro, DLS, Speakercraft, Lyngdorf, Bluesound, Dali, Cerwin-Vega, Cambridge, Argon and Bowers & Wilkins.

 

 

 

You all say Heresy III + sub!!! It makes me confident that you all feel the same, but why? Is it not difficult to find the right placement and to get the right amount bass and find the right frequency where the sub shall take over (hope you understand what I mean)?

 

I understand that the Cornwalls are supposed to be placed either in corners or aginst a wall, but what abour Heresy?

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Staffan said:

@willland

Will I get a sub good enough for $900?

US dollars, absolutely.  If stereo music is your main goal and you want to stay within that budget of $900.00, look into REL or SVS SB subs.  For more $$$, Revel and Velodyne are a couple that come to mind.

 

Bill

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23 minutes ago, Staffan said:

Funny, I was sure you should suggest a Klipsch sub also. OK, I will look ip some of these brands. Thanks for the tip.

Nothing against Klipsch subs, I have three, but they do not offer a sealed sub, which I prefer for music, or one with passive radiators at this time except for the Palladium 312 which is quite a bit more $$$.

 

Bill

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REL subs.  I don't know what your amp is but I'd use the high level inputs to the REL.  This will bring the full character (I don't like my choice of words but it fits) of your signal to your sub.  I would never use low level inputs except for movies or if I had no choice.  Many here do but I won't unless forced.  I don't understand why so many subs are built these days without high level inputs.  I also prefer to run the Heresy's full range which is contrary to the view of some who feel they eliminate a bit of distortion by introducing a high pass filter.  I feel that screws up the music a bit.  

 

I'd love to suggest a Klipsch sub... I haven't heard them all though.   I don't know which if any have high level inputs and I also want a variable phase control... not just a switch.  

 

Just my opinion... worth what you paid. 

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On 10/11/2017 at 2:54 PM, Staffan said:

Horn speakers are good at low volumes, aren't they?

A big American Welcome to the Klipsch forum Staffan!  We are happy to have you here and look forward to hearing how the new setup goes.

 

I find most speakers do not sound very good at low volumes unless you are listening near field like less than a meter.  They all have weak bass so boosting the sound with your receiver's electronics help and having a sub-woofer helps for a nice full sound at low volume.  Horn driven speakers sound better the louder you play them as  the horn becomes loaded.

 

I have a Klipsch RW 12d sub and a Do It Yourself (DIY) 15" sub from Parts-Express with a 500 watt Yung SD 500 plate amp.  I like the Klipsch and I really like the 15" sealed sub.  The larger sub when played at medium levels or better can give you that chest thump from drums and mid-bass slam

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20 hours ago, Staffan said:

You all say Heresy III + sub!!! It makes me confident that you all feel the same, but why? Is it not difficult to find the right placement and to get the right amount bass and find the right frequency where the sub shall take over (hope you understand what I mean)?

It boils down to room acoustics.  With separate subs and mains, the subs can be placed where they best couple to your local acoustics, leaving you the freedom to place the mains for optimal imaging.  Those locations rarely coincide, making the sub/main approach more adaptable.  And Heresies are kick-butt mains.  You may even want to elevate the Heresies on stands, to get the drivers up to ear level and away from obstructions.  

 

Heresies are sealed, which makes it fairly easy to blend with subs.  Whether you run them full range like Muel suggested or high passed employing bass management, you shouldn't have any problems achieving a smooth transition to your sub(s).

 

With your budget of $900, you're getting to the point where you could consider a pair of subs.  A pair of modest subs can smooth your in-room response in ways that a single, more expensive sub never could.  How much do a pair of modest sealed 12" subs from SVS go for over there?    

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Hi Staffan,

 

I'll suggest the Forte III, as well, and without a sub.  Not much wider than a Heresy and 220mm narrower than a Cornwall with similar low bass response and a little less expensive.  For most music, you don't need strong response below 41 Hz.  That appears to be true even for EDM and Dub-step (low frequency energy doesn't go below 40 Hz).  There are exceptions, but if you don't hear the ~22 Hz synthesizer in the Titanic Theme, you won't miss it.  It is subdued and a little spooky when it's there. 

 

Simplicity is good.

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Who said it would be easy to buy speakers🙂

 

Since I joined this forum my two options (Heresy + sub or Cornwall) has become five (Heresy, Heresy + 1 sub, Heresy + 2 subs, Cornwall and Forte).

 

I've been looking at SVS subs and SVS SB1000 will proberbly be enough for my aprox. 180 square feet room. I can buy it in black ash for about $680. If I choose the Heresy + sub solution I can buy another SB1000 later if I think it's worth the money.

 

I've just found out that I know a guy who has Heresy and we will get together at my place (he lives 60 km away) someday next month to check out how they sound here. Interesting. 

 

It will also be intersting to find out how my tube amp (an old Tube Technology Unisis Signature 2x35w with EL84 tubes) will pair with Heresy.

 

Forte....yes, I hear you, but still my room is not suited for them, considering the corners "being too far away" and the distance between my listening chair and the speakers would be to short. And my wallet too thin.

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If you are looking for new/used Cornwall’s or Heresy’s a used pair of Forte I’s or II’s is still a great option.  I’ve owned Klipschorns, two pairs of LaScalas, Cornwalls, Heresy III’s, RF-7II’s, RF-82 II’s, KLF-30’s and now Jubilees.  What speakers do I no longer have that I actually miss?  I miss my LaScalas and Forte I’s.  The Fortes can benefit from a corner, but they don’t need them.  If I were choosing between the Cornwall, Heresy or Forte without good corners behind them I’d go with the Fortes!!!!  You’ll probably even find that a sub isn’t necessary with the Fortes.  They are basically a slightly taller Heresy with a passive radiator on the back.  And....  the drivers are up off the floor!!!  Just trying to give you an honest no bullshit opinion.

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I just added a JBL SUB 550P, set to x-over ~60Hz, to my '77 Heresys - perfection! I had to add a 10 kilOhm resistor to each speaker output, the other ends tied to a 1 kilOhm resistor, across which the sub's L+R input signal is derived, the other end to one speaker ground. The amplifier is my still new M-P MP-301 MK3 SE class A VT amp with it's mighty 6.5 Wpc. It is more than sufficient for my 11' x 12' x 9' BR-turned-office. The sub-woofer is set barely on, yet, yet really adds something missing from the Heresys. It's a 10" driver in a sealed enclosure with a 300 W amp - and was an exceptional bargain.

 

Of course, it hasn't stopped my lusting for Cornwalls...

 

Edited to add: Neither the M-P VT amp, nor my two Emotiva A-100 50 Wpc amps have provision for sub-woofers, thus the added speaker-level L+R  circuit to the tube amp. I settled on RCA 6SJ7's and OEM 6P3P (~6L6G equivalent) tubes. My music-only source is an Onkyo C-7030 and the riser-equipped - and resting in the front on 1.5" square by 10" long hardwood turning blocks - Heresys are located in the corners in front of the respective bookcases, canted at 45 degree angles for my listening at my desk and ~4' from my ears. The sub is located midway along the right hand wall ~7' from my head.

 

I know it's common knowledge, but I must restate the obvious. The human ear has a dynamic response, favoring speech/mid-frequencies at low level, following the Fletcher-Munson curve, thus the infamous 'loudness' enhanced response once so common. Now, most folks run their equipment 'flat' and blame the poor low level LF & HF response on the speakers! Myself, I simply turn the level up! My 69 year old ears have a decided dip in frequency response from 3-4 kHz, I really can't hear my wife, which perhaps explains my love of the Heresy's MF horn. The fact that the loaded horns increase efficiency as level increases makes it even sweeter - to me!

 

The Heresys and a sub would seem to be the obvious answer - move/adjust the sub to enhance the low end. Locate/adjust the Heresys for the best overall sound.

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@Trentster5172
I appreciate your opinion, don't think otherwise.
Klipsch isn't a very big brand here so second hand Klipsch is something rare in Sweden and in Denmark too, which is close for me in the southern Sweden. So finding used Fortes is close to impossible (or maybe impossible). The same goes for Cornwalls.

 

I found a tempting offer; Velodyne SPL-1000 Ultra for 7000 SEK ($860) which is half ordinary price.

 

If anybody cares about the background why I ended up in Klipsch forum.

Two years ago I was content with the sound my ss-amp (Musical Fidelity M6i) and my bookshelfs with bass port in the rear (Monitor Audio Gold GX100).
One day I got tired of the boomy bass and decided to look for another pair of speakers. I ended up with ATC SCM19 v2. Very good speakers but together with my ss-amp the sound got a little too harsh. Then I remembered my old EL84 tube amp in a closet (Tube Technology Unisis Signature 2x35w), I thought I should give it a try. Took it out, plugged it in and it worked. Clearly a better match but I thought it should have an upgrade. So with some new caps and new Genalex Gold Lion tubes it was magic for my ears.
This work all right with CD:s at lower to "medium" levels. But then...
...one day I got tired of badly re-mastered productions from the 70s and 80s on CD.
Then I remembered my old turntable, a Thorens TD115, in another closet. A small upgrade and wow this sounded good. But I wanted more than good. I wanted great. So I bought a new turntable, a ProJect "Xperience SB DC, and a phono stage, Vincent PHO-700, and it sounded even better (almost graet). But I got a new problem. The volume. Due to the dynamics of vinyl and the a little to low output signal from the phono stage I had to turn up the volume which my tube amp didn't like.
So, what to do now? If I want tubes, which I do, I can buy a Copland or a PrimaLuna (I don't wanna rob a bank). But then it will be KT88, KT120 or KT150 tubes and I don't want them. Next option; more sensitive speakers.
My experience with "ordinary" speakers with bass ports, both sound wise and ease of placement wise, are not good. With other words I have to look into speakers that is "not ordinary". I though okay horn speakers, but I had heard that you need a big room, because if you sit too close to them they doesn't sound nice and they have to be played at high volumes to sound good. With other words, horn speakers are nothing for my little room where I sit eight feet from the speakers. But after some search on the net I read that if the horns are smaller they will not sound bad up close and someone wrote that because horn speakers are a fast and sensitive they will also sound good at low volumes.

There it is. The story about how I ended up here.

And again; sorry for my bad English.

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In the room size indicated you would probably be happier with the Heresey sub combo for sure. A lot more flexibility with set up. I have seen photos of people putting their Heresey on top of the sub which saves space and also raises the height of the horns closer to sitting ear level.

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