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efzauner

Wow what a difference Heresy vs KLF20!

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I wasn't happy with the overall sound of my KLF20s. Just no pleasure.. fatiguing etc.  Was even worried that it was my tinitus. So before trying other things such as acoustical treatments or recapping, I pulled a tweeter to finally install the Crites diaphragms that I had with the KLFs. While doing this the wires fell inside so I had to remove a woofer.  I knew the KLF20 motor board was loose and that eventually I would have to fix. but crap I could push it out 1/16 of an inch at the woofer level. So instead of putting it all back together, I removed the KLFs from the system and put on an old refurbished set of Heresy that had been totally recapped and ported and finished with lovely veneer 15 years or more ago.  WOW What a difference! Imaging, presence.. live sound, edgy guitar.   I love music again despite my tinitus!

 

HT room is 16x17ft 

 

Are the Heresys so much different? Is the loose motor board of the KLFs the culprit? They sounded totally lifeless. No listening pleasure at all.  This with my Pioneer Elite or my SA9500. I even had a Sherborne/Bryston connected. 

HT Pic.JPG

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6 hours ago, efzauner said:

Are the Heresys so much different?

They are.  I think the Heresy series are incredible speakers, though not "full range", that offer tight punchy bass, great imaging, and placement and amplifier friendly.  Their sealed cabinets are clearly built better than KLFs so that alone can have something to do with the "difference".

 

On the other hand, the KLF-20's are much larger animals that can do much very "right" but usually some care and maintenance to reinforce the cabinets is a must.

 

I say give the KLFs the attention they need for optimum performance and enjoy both pairs to the fullest.

 

Bill

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A friend of mine had the 20's and I felt the same way about them as you described, "dead." I think they would benefit from the TI mid upgrade to flush out the mids a bit but that's just speculation as I've never tried it. The 30's are a much better sounding speaker with their higher sensitivity and fuller sound IMO. 

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10 hours ago, efzauner said:

I wasn't happy with the overall sound of my KLF20s. Just no pleasure.. fatiguing etc.  Was even worried that it was my tinitus. So before trying other things such as acoustical treatments or recapping, I pulled a tweeter to finally install the Crites diaphragms that I had with the KLFs. While doing this the wires fell inside so I had to remove a woofer.  I knew the KLF20 motor board was loose and that eventually I would have to fix. but crap I could push it out 1/16 of an inch at the woofer level. So instead of putting it all back together, I removed the KLFs from the system and put on an old refurbished set of Heresy that had been totally recapped and ported and finished with lovely veneer 15 years or more ago.  WOW What a difference! Imaging, presence.. live sound, edgy guitar.   I love music again despite my tinitus!

 

HT room is 16x17ft 

 

Are the Heresys so much different? Is the loose motor board of the KLFs the culprit? They sounded totally lifeless. No listening pleasure at all.  This with my Pioneer Elite or my SA9500. I even had a Sherborne/Bryston connected. 

HT Pic.JPG

If they are Heresy IIs, there is not much difference in the drivers other than the 12" woofers crossover, and the type of horn for the mids.  The KLF20s will usually be quite the opposite of what you state unless what you are driving them with doesn't like the low impedance of the dual woofers.  Plus they would need to be adequately out from the wall for the low bass to develop.  Something definitely wrong there.

If those are Heresy !s or 1.5s, I am very surprised because they are much more high frequency peaky though if the Heresy's mid and treble are not at the same height and in your face like the 20s, yes they will sound a little more tame because of directionality.

They are both fine speakers but to say that the 20s don't keep up with the Heresys in the bass department makes me really wonder as the Heresy's do not function well down there.

Now the statement edgy guitar, I can believe that as the highs in the Heresy are usually more prominent but would agitate tinnitus.  

Messed up motor board and possibly out of phase woofers would definitely mess up the 20s sound.

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If the motherboard is loose on the KLF-30/20 the bass will be anemic....making the mids/highs sound terrible.

 

I'm willing to bet a lot of KLF owners don't even know their cabinets are not sealed properly. Once sealed properly, the punchy bass comes back and the mids/highs will sound proper.

 

Titanium tweeter diaphrams, Crites replacement midrange diaphrams or the A55-G mid-driver, proper sealing of the cabinets and proper placement will bring out the full potential of these speakers. New crossovers are probably needed as well.

 

They do very well on low powered amps. They are absolute animals with high power/high current amps.

 

I have two pairs of KLF-30'S. Both have needed work done to them. I've heard other owners KLF's sound bad more than I've heard them sound good. They need to be gone over and made right.

 

If there was ever a speaker Klipsch should bring back, it should be the KLF-30/20.....do it right this time and it would be one heck of a speaker.

 

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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The KLF-30's I had for awhile were definitely anemic on the low end and would give an audible "whack" out of both speakers with the back walls not being glued in good at all.  Once those panels were removed and redone with glue blocks all the way around and screwed in tight, added simple bracing, etc., it definitely helped them although they didn't make well with my living room.  They were sold and the CF-3's stayed as they sounded better all the way around.  The CF-3's also had to have both rear panels removed and redone, and braced, as they had the same shortage of glue in spots and too much in others.  After that fix, they are great.  But placement and room cohesion do make the most difference.

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There was a forum member here that had Chorus ll's for 20+ years.....he loved them, they were his babies.

He responded to a pair of 30's for sale, went to the guy's place for a demo. He went on and on how impressed he was with them. Called them real GIANT KILLERS!

He bought them, got them into his listening room and it just wasn't happening. He didn't really comment on the mids/highs but said the incredible bass was history. Who knows, maybe he blew up the cabinets during the demo but I'd have to bet that ultimately it's a room/placement/gear thing.

Long before I owned Klipsch....let alone even heard of them back in my car stereo days.....I went to Simply Stereo (Chicago suburb) and demoed a pair of CF-4's. I will never forget Metallica's 'The Small Hours' cranking through those things. It was awesome. Back then all I cared about was LOUD......but these things cranked AND sounded phenomenal. It wasn't until years later my uncle informed me that they were CF-4'S.



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2 hours ago, pzannucci said:

The KLF20s will usually be quite the opposite of what you state unless what you are driving them with doesn't like the low impedance of the dual woofers.  

I have both the KLF-20s and the RF-7s and was curious what the real world ramifications of this statement. The latter have been our main speakers in our Home Theater (listed below) and have seen Frequency Response Charts showing the RF-7IIs dip below 4 Ohms and had seen referenced that the original RF-7s went as low as 2.8 Ohms at a couple of frequencies. That being said, are the KLF-20s comparably as hard/easy to drive as the RF-7s? In other words, on both models would it be advisable to find an amp that is rated to drive 4 Ohm speakers? 

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I took apart one of them (one at at time please!!!) and both front and back boards were almost completely un glued.  I cleaned it up and back is gluing with gorilla urethane right now..  

Will hold off on  comments until both are fixed.  But yeah I can understand why they where crap with the fronts and backs vibrating. 

 

On the other hand.. um who can tell me what the original port length was? seems mine where modified with the port tube replace with ABS plumbing pipe glued to the original flare... 

 

They are H1s   highly modified with a different cross over with both mid and tweet level controls. Thicker panels and a port.  The listening level is with the stands you see in the pic puts them about same level as the KLF 20s.    I sold my Tangent 400s before I did a serious comparison.    

 

 

 

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Another thing with the KLF's......there was a thread a while back and it seems there is some confusion in regard to the midrange driver being in phase or not. The positive and negative terminals are not labeled clearly and can be easily misunderstood. One guy, maybe more actually preferred them out of phase.

I don't know why because when I tried them out of phase, they sounded nasty and ironically, how some have described the KLF sound in a negative way.

So I'd check ALL of your drivers. I think when you buy any of these Klipsch speakers used, you have to deal with what the previous owner monkeyed with. Possibly screwing them up which led to them putting them up for sale.

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4 minutes ago, SWL said:

Another thing with the KLF's......there was a thread a while back and it seems there is some confusion in regard to the midrange driver being in phase or not. The positive and negative terminals are not labeled clearly and can be easily misunderstood. One guy, maybe more actually preferred them out of phase.

I don't know why because when I tried them out of phase, they sounded nasty and ironically, how some have described the KLF sound in a negative way.

So I'd check ALL of your drivers. I think when you buy any of these Klipsch speakers used, you have to deal with what the previous owner monkeyed with. Possibly screwing them up which led to them putting them up for sale.

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Thanks for that. The guy I purchased them from wasn't an idiot. He also had a pair of CF1s and other high end gear. He probably wasnt the original owner.  I dont know if he had tried to fix them up.

 

Damn always under estimating how much urethane glue expands!    

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I have K-31 and K-31E woofers in my 30's. I can't remember which ones gave me the headache but I want to say it was the K-31's......their positive/negative terminals were not identifiable for whatever the reason. It's been a while, I'd have to pop one out.

 

Out of the four woofers, if even one of them was out of phase it would jack up the sound. It took a while by process of trial and error....back and forth to the sweet spot....checking imaging, etc. to get it right.

 

From my experiences having lived with two pairs of KLF-30'S (still am) and a pair of 20's, a lot....if not all of the sound quality issues I hear of probably stem from one or more drivers wired out of phase and/or the cabinets falling apart.

 

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I took apart one of them (one at at time please!!!) and both front and back boards were almost completely un glued.
 
who can tell me what the original port length was? seems mine where modified with the port tube replace with ABS plumbing pipe glued to the original flare... 
  
 
 
 


This just goes to show what I was talking about. The 30's port is 2.5 - 3". Not sure about the 20's.



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On 10/25/2017 at 9:55 PM, efzauner said:

I wasn't happy with the overall sound of my KLF20s. Just no pleasure.. fatiguing etc.  Was even worried that it was my tinitus. So before trying other things such as acoustical treatments or recapping, I pulled a tweeter to finally install the Crites diaphragms that I had with the KLFs. While doing this the wires fell inside so I had to remove a woofer.  I knew the KLF20 motor board was loose and that eventually I would have to fix. but crap I could push it out 1/16 of an inch at the woofer level. So instead of putting it all back together, I removed the KLFs from the system and put on an old refurbished set of Heresy that had been totally recapped and ported and finished with lovely veneer 15 years or more ago.  WOW What a difference! Imaging, presence.. live sound, edgy guitar.   I love music again despite my tinitus!

 

HT room is 16x17ft 

 

Are the Heresys so much different? Is the loose motor board of the KLFs the culprit? They sounded totally lifeless. No listening pleasure at all.  This with my Pioneer Elite or my SA9500. I even had a Sherborne/Bryston connected. 

HT Pic.JPG

try the heresy's on the floor..

and in the corners with slant risers..

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I own both the KLF-20's and 30's and three pair of Heresys. I can't understand how the KLF are harsh, unless something is off with your speakers or cabinets. I find the KLF very smooth and with plenty of low end. I have my Heresy paired with a sub or two in each system because they need that extra somethin somethin in the low end. 

 

I hope you get whatever it is squared away so you can enjoy both sets!

 

 

Tim

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most stock KLF20/30 were shipped with the flimsy black shiny Mylar diaphragm installed in the K79 tweeter. This is not a good sounding diaphragm and it sounds much worse than the phenolic diaphragm. The ti diaphragm from Bob Crites is an excellent upgrade . This is the cause of the edge you may hear on your KLF20.

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So the KLF 20s are back online with repaired cabinets and Crites titanium tweeter diaphragm.   

Side by side I sill like the Heresys better.  More detail,  more edgy bass guitar and drums, more open sound.  The KLF20s seem muddy boomy in comparison, overly loud midrange. 

Yes I know the KLF is a few dB louder.  

 

Any thoughts?   Would the Simply Speakers titanium mid change this? Or is the the 12 woofer in the Heresy vs the 2x 10 inch in the KLF. 

 

 

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The titanium mid is slightly louder than stock, the A-55g is 3db quieter though and an excellent driver. 

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If KLF-20/30's are "muddy-boomy", something sure isn't right.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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KLF's are known for tight, punchy bass. Mids can get out of hand if not eq'd or tweaked one way or another.....as is the case with a lot of Klipsch. The A-55G mid drivers are gold in mine.

 

Recently, I sealed up the cabs in mine (finally) and added some front to back bracing. I was cranking it a week or so ago and those babies were POUNDING. The woofers used to hardly move. Now, they looked like they were gonna fly out of the box! It was like someone was pounding on the floor....and my chest....with a sledgehammer. I turned off my subs and was totally impressed.

 

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