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No.4

Extreme slope crossovers in a small room

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I am looking for a little input from any of you using Al’s extreme slope networks in smaller listening rooms. I am using the es500 and es5800 combo with diy La Scalas. These networks do many things very well, separation of instruments, clean bass, very clean bass, and vocal clarity is all there in spades. However the center image is not. I was using Bob’s a4500 networks previously which are great for how basic they are and they had a great center image. I have read how great the imaging of the esn networks is and for the most part they are amazing, but I am missing that center image. Any advice? Are these for big rooms?

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My opinion is your experience is very similar to mine.  I could have tried harder to get my speaker and seat position correct so I don't know if it might have been possible but I just didn't work at it hard enough.  Correct placement for the gentle slope network might not be the same for the ES.  

 

Also, don't forget to look for other causes... look around the room... did furniture get added or moved around since you had the other networks?

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53 minutes ago, muel said:

My opinion is your experience is very similar to mine.  I could have tried harder to get my speaker and seat position correct so I don't know if it might have been possible but I just didn't work at it hard enough.  Correct placement for the gentle slope network might not be the same for the ES.  

 

Also, don't forget to look for other causes... look around the room... did furniture get added or moved around since you had the other networks?

No furniture moved, just plug and play.

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There is a distance from the speakers when the different wavefronts converge. I believe it will be a greater distance with the extreme slopes compared to the overlap with the older networks. This could possibly affect the imaging. Plus, the volume for playback could be a factor. Some (many?) say the gain needs to be up more for the ESNs to sound their best, which you may not do in a smaller room.

 

Bruce

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19 hours ago, Marvel said:

There is a distance from the speakers when the different wavefronts converge. I believe it will be a greater distance with the extreme slopes compared to the overlap with the older networks. This could possibly affect the imaging. Plus, the volume for playback could be a factor. Some (many?) say the gain needs to be up more for the ESNs to sound their best, which you may not do in a smaller room.

 

Bruce

I will try to push the volume a little.

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2 hours ago, Wirrunna said:

 

If you have the squakers out of phase then you will get a hole in the middle of the stereo image.

 

How small is your room?

 

I tested all the drivers, they are in phase.

iirc my room is 11x12, pretty small.

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I tried them and sent them back. I couldn't get a cohesive sound until the drywall was shaking.

 

If you have a large room, but sit close -- same problem.

 

I use some nicely built Type As, with a 35 wpc tube amp -- and sit about 10 feet back.

 

Some people like them at low volumes just fine. I thought the sound was dry, one dimensional, and lacking in dynamics.

 

Have you tried toeing them in more? I would imagine you've done that.

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I'm by no means any expert, but I agree with Marvel and Deang.

 

I had some ESN's on my Khorns.  I did find that they sounded noticeably better....BUT....  the spot where they sounded better (then the original crossovers) was when I was standing 30' away.  As I closed in on them from that 30' spot, they lost their cohesive sound.

 

Without any technical background, my opinion is if you have a small room, they physically might not work for you because the sound won't create a single "sound bubble" for a longer time (therefore distance) from the speaker, pushing you right out.  In other words, I'm guessing the sweet spot you seek is manifesting itself (if it could) in the adjacent room.

 

That was my experience and I'm holding onto my opinion until my wife says it's wrong and hers is right!  :huh:

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38 minutes ago, Coytee said:

That was my experience and I'm holding onto my opinion until my wife says it's wrong and hers is right!  :huh:

 

I'm sure that doesn't happen often...  :blink:

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15 hours ago, Deang said:

Have you tried toeing them in more? I would imagine you've done that.

Yes, that helps to bring the image more to the center, but they have to be toed in so much that the soundstage gets really narrow. Even then they still don’t seem to sound right unless I’m in the hallway or in the other room. I think these would be amazing in a bigger room. When these are cranked they do some wonderful things the A4500s just didn’t have. So.. I can either sit in the hallway, or maybe it is time for me to finally build some AAs. 

 

 

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At some frequency drivers go from wide beam/omnidirectional to beaming. In most cases for any crossover point the low range driver beam more than the high range driver. With a overlapping crossover this change is blurred. With steep slope xovers the frequency dependent beamwith is less blurred. Could that affect center image?

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I’m bringing this thread back up in case someone references it down the road. A couple changes have improved the imaging dramatically. First, less tow in actually helped the center image quite a bit, but it also widened the soundstage. The biggest improvement came from larger format mid drivers. The two inch driver does so much for the depth of soundstage and overall clarity it’s amazing. I was hesitant because of the cost of admission but it is totally worth it. I know I may be lying to myself but I would say this speaker build is complete. 

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2 hours ago, Deang said:

Cheater.

Haha, it’s not without a cost though. Every flaw in a recording stands out like a sore thumb. 

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On 11/22/2017 at 5:43 PM, Deang said:

I tried them and sent them back. I couldn't get a cohesive sound until the drywall was shaking.

 

If you have a large room, but sit close -- same problem.

 

I use some nicely built Type As, with a 35 wpc tube amp -- and sit about 10 feet back.

 

Some people like them at low volumes just fine. I thought the sound was dry, one dimensional, and lacking in dynamics.

 

Have you tried toeing them in more? I would imagine you've done that.

Dean, I read your comment to mean you liked the type A networks at 10 feet back and you didn’t care for the ESnetworks at that distance. Did I get that right? 

I’m usually 10-12 feet from my Lascalas with an AA(mostly) network. 

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