How to dissect polar patterns and frequency responses for horns.

[Chris A]

The Faital Pros do sound better than the K-69-As, particularly on crash and ride cymbal transients where you can hear the differences--particularly if you're young. 

 

My youngest is 29 right now--so "22" is certainly looking toward a lifetime of excellent sound. 

You're on the right path, grasshopper...

 

Chris

[Droogne]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

The Faital Pros do sound better than the K-69-As, particularly on crash and ride cymbal transients where you can hear the differences--particularly if you're young. 

 

My youngest is 29 right now--so "22" is certainly looking toward a lifetime of excellent sound. 

You're on the right path, grasshopper...

 

Chris

I have went from a simple RP450C with 2 Q Acoustics 3020 (small bookshelves), a few pair of extremely cheap bookshelves (3euro/speaker) and a low budget 50" HD tv to a 65" 4K OLED with a full blown 11.1 Atmos surround (+ buttkickers) consisting of large Klipsch Speakers. To be clear, that was the evolution over less than a year  (didnt have anything except a small bluetooth speaker 2 years ago). First my home theatre (also planning a quadruple 15" VNF subwoofer config) with the K-402s. Then a nice pair of bookshelves (something none Klipsch for a change) and then I'll see hehe. I'm studying medicine so I still got 2 years before I start earning anything, and another 4-5 years before I have a real job :s after that I can start to look for a house to make a more permanent home theatre/listening room. 

 

And about the Faital, I'm definitely gonna buy those instead of the K69 if I have the chance, I just have the option to go cheap  I'm looking at my options at the moment, I can buy the K-402 without thinking, but I had a budget in mind (as to prevent me from overspending on audio, and losing all my savings ha). 

[Droogne]

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

The Faital Pros do sound better than the K-69-As, particularly on crash and ride cymbal transients where you can hear the differences--particularly if you're young. 

PS would you happen to know if the 1133 is useable in a 2-way (not at extreme dB)?

[Chris A]

Yes.  That's what I was referring to exclusively, above.

[Droogne]

3 hours ago, Chris A said:

Yes.  That's what I was referring to exclusively, above.

Oh sorry, thought you were talking about the 1132, which is used in a 2-way. The 1133 is used in a 3-way, but I was hoping it might be used in a 2-way too. Maybe I didnt understand what you meant with: "1132 with the custom phase plug design by Roy over the K-1133 midrange driver configuration". 

 

EDIT: I found what you meant. "I cross them at 4 Khz, which is where the K-1133 driver starts to roll off" . The phase plug you mentioned is what gives the 1132 his higher extension (and sacrifices some of his low end). 1133 is more than 100eu cheaper, which is why I was asking. Will have to go with the 1132 then! Or I could go 3-way (as the 1133 would give a better midrange, no?)

[Chris A]

The 1133 is a midrange driver, while the 1132 is "full range" - about 500 Hz - 19 kHz.

[Droogne]

11 hours ago, Chris A said:

The 1133 is a midrange driver, while the 1132 is "full range" - about 500 Hz - 19 kHz.

I'll let you know if my dealer can get his hand on some other driver or buy the horn without the drivers. PS never checked it, but is there noone selling his K-402 in the US? I can get almost anything over here (Klipsch speakers etc), but  the K-402 will have to be shipped in all cases (even with my dealer it has to be ordered from the US, which costs extra) so in this one case a second hand K-402 from the US would still be the best option. 

[Droogne]

On 24-11-2017 at 3:57 PM, Chris A said:

First, you would need to select height loudspeakers having the same frequency response range as your other loudspeakers, then you'd EQ their frequency response flat like your other loudspeakers using a DSP crossover or similar device upstream that does parametric equalization.  I found this out using a tri-amped, time aligned, dialed-in Belle center between the Jubs--its timbre isn't the same due to the fact that its frequency response lacks the bottom octave or so of the Jub bass bins. Once the K-402-MEH hit the scene, I had essentially perfect timbre matching.  The surrounds also need to be timbre matched (mine are, presently).  If you use narrow coverage front loudspeakers (i.e., L, C, R) and wide coverage bipole or dipole surrounds, you will never timbre match them all in room.

 

PS just saw a thread about the K510, which has supposedly good polar control. It's no K402, but might work as a 2-way height channel horn (in a heresy cabin) with same driver as the K402. 

 

PS havent heard back from my k402 dealer (about the driver chouce), but I'm no hurry so I'll give him some extra days before I ask again. 

 

[Chris A]

The K-510 can be crossed as low as 550 Hz using steep slope filters, but below that point you need something else in a relatively small box to take you down to at least 100 Hz (with 50-70 Hz really being the target cut-off frequency). 

 

A Heresy-like 12" woofer and closed box would do that, but this is still a somewhat large box for height channels relative to what I see from Klipsch and other loudspeaker manufacturers in the HT marketplace.  It's what I'd do if I were into Atmos, etc., but the configurations that I've seen are actually mounted on the ceiling instead of high on the front on side walls.  This creates a requirement that the coverage angles must be at least 90 degrees both in the vertical and horizontal directions.  The K-510 is a 90x60 horn.  I'd instead mount the elevation channels high on the front and side walls and aim them at the prime LPs to avoid this loudspeaker coverage issue.

 

Chris

[Droogne]

2 minutes ago, Chris A said:

The K-510 can be crossed as low as 550 Hz using steep slope filters, but below that point you need something else in a relatively small box to take you down to at least 100 Hz (with 50-70 Hz really being the target cut-off frequency). 

 

A Heresy-like 12" woofer and closed box would do that, but this is still a somewhat large box for height channels relative to what I see from Klipsch and other loudspeaker manufacturers in the HT marketplace.  It's what I'd do if I were into Atmos, etc., but the configurations that I've seen are actually mounted on the ceiling instead of high on the front on side walls.  This creates a requirement that the coverage angles must be at least 90 degrees both in the vertical and horizontal directions.  The K-510 is a 90x60 horn.  I'd instead mount the elevation channels high on the front and side walls and aim them at the prime LPs to avoid this loudspeaker coverage issue.

 

Chris

Yeah I have been going through the height channel problem for a  while, and decided that best option would be using regular height channels, as its still better then non-wall mounted "Atmos enabled modules". It's not officially recommended, but a lot of users agree that atmos works very good with regular channels (this way my surround is also compatible with a lot of other formats). I'm mounting the heresys with PA wall mounts (and a 35mm adapter screwed onto the Heresy) as they are good to 40kg, I'll send a pic next week when I have them up and running). Custom height channels are a future project, the k510 just looked interesting! Looks like a good match for the k402 as they are used together in the 3-way. 

[Droogne]

On 3-12-2017 at 3:45 PM, Chris A said:

 I'd instead mount the elevation channels high on the front and side walls and aim them at the prime LPs to avoid this loudspeaker coverage issue.

 

Chris

 

Semi unrelated question. Would you recommend horizontal vertical placement of the heresys/K510 heresys. Or doesnt it really matter as they are just heights?

 

PS: I might have a line on 2 or 3 K-402s (2 without drivers)(see the garage sale section) so I might have to think about that synergy horn sooner than I thought! How hard would it be to copy your design? (how much skill does it require etc). 

[Droogne]

@Chris A Have not yet mounted my heresys so if you still might have a tip on the vertical or horizontal placement I'd be glad to hear it. Dont have any time at the moment to delve deeper into to all the subjects were conversing about, but I'll get to back to all that when my exams are behind me. Just some things I'm still looking for/thinking about at the moment. Not sure if I want to buy the K-402 new (can use the money for other projects), so I'm gonna wait a few months to see if I cant find a second hand pair/single one. If not I'll still buy them brand new. If you do know someone willing to sell them, hit me up!   Need/want to know somethinh though, still not sure if I'm able to do the MEH horn adjustments, but I'd be good to know if I can, so when I come across a single horn I'm able to buy it directly without hesitating. Soooo, how hard would you think it is to pull of via internet instructions? I got some very capable people who can help me with that (who have the correct gear too). That is of course, if you'd be willing to share your exact design with me. Would be very grateful! It would not only be an awesome speaker and project, but also a very good way to a decent height center channel. 

[Chris A]

Sorry for the delay--I started a reply and never sent it...

 

2 hours ago, Droogne said:

Have not yet mounted my heresys so if you still might have a tip on the vertical or horizontal placement I'd be glad to hear it

 

The midrange horn (the stock K-700 horn or the K-510 midrange/treble horn) need to be oriented in the horizontal direction in order to get 90 degree coverage horizontally.  The K-700 in particular has variable coverage with frequency in the vertical direction (so called "collapsing polars"), so you need to make sure that it's oriented horizontally.   

 

If you need to orient the Heresy boxes horizontally, you could remove the midrange and tweeter drivers/horn from the box (covering up the resulting holes in the front baffle so that they're air tight), thin place the midrange/tweeter horns/drivers on the side of the box, but aligned such that the two drivers are aligned with the voice coils of the woofer.  It will sound much better that way.  You would need to clamp the midrange horn mouth to some cut-out piece of MDF or plywood to stop the ringing, but that doesn't need to be very thick or wide around the mouth.

 

2 hours ago, Droogne said:

Not sure if I want to buy the K-402 new (can use the money for other projects), so I'm gonna wait a few months to see if I cant find a second hand pair/single one. If not I'll still buy them brand new. If you do know someone willing to sell them, hit me up

Good luck.  I'd pay particular attention to commercial sales for cinema renovations and bankruptcy liquidations.  Not sure how many cinemas in the EU have been equipped with Klipsch, but there are quite a few in the US.  I'd put ongoing search filters for US cinema sales of Klipsch cinema loudspeakers into your search engine queue.

 

There are three models of the K-402 horn, and the first version with the metal throats (almost 20 years ago) isn't what you want to buy.  The other two versions made out of ABS (version-2 weighing in at 25 pounds and version-3 at 15 pounds) are what you're looking for.  Look especially for KPT-305 modules if you're interested in doing a K-402-MEH center channel. 

 

2 hours ago, Droogne said:

Need/want to know somethinh though, still not sure if I'm able to do the MEH horn adjustments, but I'd be good to know if I can, so when I come across a single horn I'm able to buy it directly without hesitating. Soooo, how hard would you think it is to pull of via internet instructions? I got some very capable people who can help me with that (who have the correct gear too). That is of course, if you'd be willing to share your exact design with me. Would be very grateful! It would not only be an awesome speaker and project, but also a very good way to a decent height center channel. 

 

Anyone that wants to make K-402-MEHs from K-402 horns is open to do so: all of the information is free and open as far as I'm concerned.

 

The K-402 MEH is actually very easy to dial in as far as the woofer pass band is concerned: mine only took two PEQs.  The compression driver settings are the same as for the Jubilee K-402.  You'll need to modify a KPT-305 box to cover the back to make it air tight, or make your own box to approximate dimensions since the box volume isn't significant, and make and attach the 15" diameter woofer mounting pads to the horn.  Cutting the off-axis woofer through ports into the K-402 horn isn't rocket science.  It will take perhaps an afternoon or less to dial in via the web with you and I on each end of emails.  Thus far, I've helped perhaps a dozen guys dial in their setups using REW, a calibrated microphone  and a DSP crossover on their end.

 

If you want a for-purpose one piece MEH horn with off-axis ports and woofer mounting pads already molded in that replaces the K-402 horn for a MEH, you'll have to wait until I get off my rear end to complete the mold (...and events keep conspiring to keep me away from it...).  This horn will be significantly thicker/stiffer for reproducing the woofer frequencies and which eliminates the port-cutting/woofer mounting pad mounting steps. 

 

Chris

[Droogne]

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Sorry for the delay--I started a reply and never sent it...

Know the feeling  I do that at least 5 times a day when texting/messaging.

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

 

The midrange horn (the stock K-700 horn or the K-510 midrange/treble horn) need to be oriented in the horizontal direction in order to get 90 degree coverage horizontally.  The K-700 in particular has variable coverage with frequency in the vertical direction (so called "collapsing polars"), so you need to make sure that it's oriented horizontally.   

 

If you need to orient the Heresy boxes horizontally, you could remove the midrange and tweeter drivers/horn from the box (covering up the resulting holes in the front baffle so that they're air tight), thin place the midrange/tweeter horns/drivers on the side of the box, but aligned such that the two drivers are aligned with the voice coils of the woofer.  It will sound much better that way.  You would need to clamp the midrange horn mouth to some cut-out piece of MDF or plywood to stop the ringing, but that doesn't need to be very thick or wide around the mouth.

Hmm.. Then I'll probably stick with mounting them vertically. Not really a problem. Interesting proposition (good plan for when I ever decide to make my custom HF200/K510 heights  

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

 

Good luck.  I'd pay particular attention to commercial sales for cinema renovations and bankruptcy liquidations.  Not sure how many cinemas in the EU have been equipped with Klipsch, but there are quite a few in the US.  I'd put ongoing search filters for US cinema sales of Klipsch cinema loudspeakers into your search engine queue.

Can you maybe suggest some good US second hand search engines? Something like hifishark. 

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

 

There are three models of the K-402 horn, and the first version with the metal throats (almost 20 years ago) isn't what you want to buy.  The other two versions made out of ABS (version-2 weighing in at 25 pounds and version-3 at 15 pounds) are what you're looking for.  Look especially for KPT-305 modules if you're interested in doing a K-402-MEH center channel. 

Aight, thanks! Such a shame I didn't get my hands on that triple K-402 horn sale from few weeks back.. Almost had it arranged! Good to know about the material haha! Wouldnt have thought about that. 

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

 

 

Anyone that wants to make K-402-MEHs from K-402 horns is open to do so: all of the information is free and open as far as I'm concerned.

 

The K-402 MEH is actually very easy to dial in as far as the woofer pass band is concerned: mine only took two PEQs.  The compression driver settings are the same as for the Jubilee K-402.  You'll need to modify a KPT-305 box to cover the back to make it air tight, or make your own box to approximate dimensions since the box volume isn't significant, and make and attach the 15" diameter woofer mounting pads to the horn. 

Will probably make my own box. Probably a nice veneered one too (considering the K-402 is already so expensive). 

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

 

Cutting the off-axis woofer through ports into the K-402 horn isn't rocket science.  It will take perhaps an afternoon or less to dial in via the web with you and I on each end of emails.  Thus far, I've helped perhaps a dozen guys dial in their setups using REW, a calibrated microphone  and a DSP crossover on their end.

Well, chances are I'll buy my xilica before the end of february, so I'll have the same gear as you. Dont really have the time, but have did some testing with the UMIK, REW PEQ (your guide) and my sub. Interesting stuff! Good results too. 

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

If you want a for-purpose one piece MEH horn with off-axis ports and woofer mounting pads already molded in that replaces the K-402 horn for a MEH, you'll have to wait until I get off my rear end to complete the mold (...and events keep conspiring to keep me away from it...).  This horn will be significantly thicker/stiffer for reproducing the woofer frequencies and which eliminates the port-cutting/woofer mounting pad mounting steps. 

Not sure what you mean by that.. Are you building your own MEH design horn? As in a building plan to make a complete horn? Or? Sounds awesome none the less ! Would be very interested!! (how about a 11x exact MEH setup hehe). 

12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

 

Chris

 

[Chris A]

34 minutes ago, Droogne said:

Are you building your own MEH design horn? As in a building plan to make a complete horn?

I found that I wanted a stiffer/heavier horn...in one piece--and costing a lot less than a K-402 (with a mandatory attached driver that I don't want), available only in basic black.  So it's all DIY: just my two hands and pocketbook.  Not sure how many horns can be made from one mold, however.  My needs are for five horns. 

 

Chris

[No.4]

35 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I found that I wanted a stiffer/heavier horn...in one piece--and costing a lot less than a K-402 (with a mandatory attached driver that I don't want), available only in basic black.  So it's all DIY: just my two hands and pocketbook.  Not sure how many horns can be made from one mold, however.  My needs are for five horns. 

 

Chris

I think many people would be interested in a molded horn with all of the driver mounts in place. Personally if there was a molded horn available at a reasonable price that could be finished by the builder I would be all over it. 

 

I check the the thread on diy Audio from time to time hoping for an update. Finishing the mold could be a good goal for the new year, hint hint.🤔

[Droogne]

6 hours ago, Chris A said:

I found that I wanted a stiffer/heavier horn...in one piece--and costing a lot less than a K-402 (with a mandatory attached driver that I don't want), available only in basic black.  So it's all DIY: just my two hands and pocketbook.  Not sure how many horns can be made from one mold, however.  My needs are for five horns. 

 

Chris

Well cant argue about the cost and attached driver. If it as good as you say then I probably keep upgrading till I have 7 (or 11), so a better priced option without driver would be amaaaaazing!

5 hours ago, No.4 said:

I think many people would be interested in a molded horn with all of the driver mounts in place. Personally if there was a molded horn available at a reasonable price that could be finished by the builder I would be all over it. 

 

I check the the thread on diy Audio from time to time hoping for an update. Finishing the mold could be a good goal for the new year, hint hint.🤔

Would be the best new years gift I can imagine  

[Droogne]

8 hours ago, Chris A said:

Cutting the off-axis woofer through ports into the K-402 horn isn't rocket science.  It will take perhaps an afternoon or less to dial in via the web with you and I on each end of emails.  Thus far, I've helped perhaps a dozen guys dial in their setups using REW, a calibrated microphone  and a DSP crossover on their end.

 

Would you be able to recommend a really cheap intermediate (like my PH2380), that would work? (I know you said something about the slot and use above 4kHz, but I'm not sure how to translate that into picking a good horn. You recommend something really cheap, but unavailable in Europe). Here is the list of P Audio drivers (http://www.paudiothailand.com/pac/index.cfm/products/high-frequency-horns/) , something that looks like it could work? (with the emphasis on "work", perfection would not be chased with this horn). Then I'd have a"tryout" before I'd need to cut into the expensive K-402. I'd use the same driver (HF200), woofers (not decided on) + MDF mounts, and I would already build the appropriate box (with a temporary adjusted front plate) for when I can get my hands on the real deal. I know you already explained it to some extent, so it would be possible right? Would give me the option to already start on the MEF project (instead of having to wait till I have the capital) + maybe I can go from this cheap version to your adjusted DIY mold  

 

 

 

[Chris A]

So you're asking if you could try out an MEH off-axis port cut-through using another horn?  I haven't tried cutting ports in other horns, so my suggestions on horns to use will be purely speculative.  I don't know any horn like a K-402 in size and full-range potential for MEH use except perhaps a very large (and very expensive) Auto-Tech horn that's also very difficult to find due to its apparent low production run.

 

I own two different P.Audio horn models, one of which is the one that you identified above.  I used it for a little while on top of a Heresy bass bin with a K-69-A driver as a temporary center channel, but I quickly lost interest in it because I was using that horn from 600-18,000 Hz and the "frying eggs" sound was quite prevalent due to its throat-located slot.  Once you get to 4 kHz with that 2" diameter throat horn, it will produce higher order modes in abundance, which are audible as that frying eggs sound described. 

 

I'd recommend something like the following instead (ships from Florida):

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Throat-Horn-Bolt-On-18-x10-For-Assorted-Bolt-On-2-Exit-Drivers-90-x-40-398/231420420855?hash=item35e1bb62f7:g:E6gAAOSwhglTxvJm

 

or

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/11-x-17-ABS-2-Bolt-On-Long-Throw-Horn-90-x-40-For-Many-2-Exit-Driver-/331676072699

 

I don't how their bass performance might be below the mouth polar control frequency, and which woofers to use.  Here is a link to a thread on diyAudio that might help you along that path if you're trying to go that direction:

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-syns.html

 

Note that I'm not a big fan of "small Synergies" since they require separate bass bins and are a lot of work to accomplish--that a good 2" compression driver like any of the Faital Pro HF200 series, or a bi-amped and EQed dual-diaphragm BMS 4592-ND that would cover in one step on a K-510 horn--and it would do it better.  In my view, if you're going to spend the time on an MEH, use a full-range horn and much larger 15" woofers so that you can approximate a Danley SH-96...or perhaps a SM-96 if you're going to go smaller.  (The Danley SH-50 and SH-60 and their molded horn counterparts have too narrow a horizontal coverage pattern for my needs--by about a factor of two.)

 

Chris

 

 

[Droogne]

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

So you're asking if you could try out an MEH off-axis port cut-through using another horn?  I haven't tried cutting ports in other horns, so my suggestions on horns to use will be purely speculative.  I don't know any horn like a K-402 in size and full-range potential for MEH use except perhaps a very large (and very expensive) Auto-Tech horn that's also very difficult to find due to its apparent low production run.

 

I own two different P.Audio horn models, one of which is the one that you identified above.  I used it for a little while on top of a Heresy bass bin with a K-69-A driver as a temporary center channel, but I quickly lost interest in it because I was using that horn from 600-18,000 Hz and the "frying eggs" sound was quite prevalent due to its throat-located slot.  Once you get to 4 kHz with that 2" diameter throat horn, it will produce higher order modes in abundance, which are audible as that frying eggs sound described. 

 

I'd recommend something like the following instead (ships from Florida):

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Throat-Horn-Bolt-On-18-x10-For-Assorted-Bolt-On-2-Exit-Drivers-90-x-40-398/231420420855?hash=item35e1bb62f7:g:E6gAAOSwhglTxvJm

 

or

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/11-x-17-ABS-2-Bolt-On-Long-Throw-Horn-90-x-40-For-Many-2-Exit-Driver-/331676072699

 

I don't how their bass performance might be below the mouth polar control frequency, and which woofers to use.  Here is a link to a thread on diyAudio that might help you along that path if you're trying to go that direction:

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-syns.html

 

Note that I'm not a big fan of "small Synergies" since they require separate bass bins and are a lot of work to accomplish--that a good 2" compression driver like any of the Faital Pro HF200 series, or a bi-amped and EQed dual-diaphragm BMS 4592-ND that would cover in one step on a K-510 horn--and it would do it better.  In my view, if you're going to spend the time on an MEH, use a full-range horn and much larger 15" woofers so that you can approximate a Danley SH-96...or perhaps a SM-96 if you're going to go smaller.  (The Danley SH-50 and SH-60 and their molded horn counterparts have too narrow a horizontal coverage pattern for my needs--by about a factor of two.)

 

Chris

 

 

Hmm.. If I'd need an expensive horn or need another bin, I'd better hold out for the K-402. Just struck a deal on the sale of my current LaScala II center, so I actually have the budget to build the MEH (with a brand new horn). Got a few options if I can't build an intermediate full range MEH.

1: I dont use a center speaker for a while. 2: I use one of my heresys as a center, and use the other one as a rear center (a 6.1 config). In both cases I'll just have to wait till I can find a K-402 for cheap somewhere. 3: I buy a brand new K-402 (but it would use all money I gain from selling my center, which I was hoping to put towards the Xilica and my K-402 fronts). Thanks again for keeping me away from inferior setups  

 

In any case, it seems like I'm gonna wait till end of february to decide what I'm gonna do. The sale of my Lascala would only go down around that time so it's not like I have the budget to buy a K-402 till then. 

 

Additional question. What would the effect be if you'd add some regular front firing bass bins beneath the MEH center? Would it be impossible to integrate? Or wouldn't there be any real additional effect? Not really considering it, just an afterthought  (one I had because I would need to raise the MEH if I want the tv on a decent height (although even a 12" bassbin underneath it would destroy the height advantage of the MEH, as the tv would be too high again). If I like the MEH I'll probably use it on my fronts too, and maybe even integrate it with my LaScala bins (and maybe even the center if I ever decide to switch from my OLED to a big AT project screen).

 

(thought keep popping into my head). If I'd want to boost the midbass, could I use 2 LaScalas next to each other with the MEH/regular K-402 on top. Or do the horn mouths need to be in each others extension (in which case: would 2 LaScalas on their side next to eachother work, and still hold that 200hz pattern you spoke about).