How to dissect polar patterns and frequency responses for horns.

[Droogne]

3 minutes ago, Chris A said:

"Separation" is centerline to centerline of the horns/drivers.

if youre crossing at 500hz, how do you even place it close enough to the centerline of your bassbin? That's at least 2 times that distance in a stock LaScala? (I'm guessing I'm still misunderstanding).

[Chris A]

32 minutes ago, Droogne said:

(I'm guessing I'm still misunderstanding).

 

No, you're not.  We're discussing one reason why multiple entry horns (MEHs) sound so good in room.  All of their drivers are within 1/4 wavelength (centerline to centerline of ports) and are nominally time aligned as is without DSP to correct phase/delay. 

 

Not everyone agrees on this point but I've got to say that I'm sold on the MEH technique, just based on the one DIY sample that I've had for two years.  None of the other horn-loaded loudspeakers can really claim coherence of driver alignment+absence of lobing. 

 

There are direct radiating loudspeakers that sometimes get close to 1/4 wavelength vertical separation (or less) at their crossover interference wavelengths, but the many drawbacks of direct radiating loudspeakers is something that I would guess I don't have to mention on this particular forum. 

 

Chris

[ClaudeJ1]

8 hours ago, Chris A said:

I find the Jubilees' K-402s are a little too high off the floor sitting on top of the bass bins--for my room. I'd like them lower, and the full-range MEH design makes that easy to achieve.

A great compromise would be to build a Quarter Pie horn with an Eminence 4 ohm woofer for $99 per bin.

[ClaudeJ1]

5 hours ago, Chris A said:

(I believe that a lot of people don't like center channel loudspeakers as specified in the 5.1 ITU-R BS.775–3 arrangement, shown schematically below) because they never have used center loudspeakers that are good enough for the role that they're placed in.  It easily needs to be the best loudspeaker that you own in order to integrate properly, I've found subjectively via experiment.)

I agree. I have gone as far as using Danley MEH horns from his first patent, called Unity Summation Aperture, or Sound Physics Labs TD-1 for Center AND all Surrounds!!

[ClaudeJ1]

5 hours ago, Chris A said:

The clarity and speech recognition of the K-402-MEH is startling.

Yes it would be, if it's anything like the Danley stuff. Good adjective!!

 

[ClaudeJ1]

3 hours ago, Chris A said:

 

No, you're not.  We're discussing one reason why multiple entry horns (MEHs) sound so good in room.  All of their drivers are within 1/4 wavelength (centerline to centerline of ports) and are nominally time aligned as is without DSP to correct phase/delay. 

 

Not everyone agrees on this point but I've got to say that I'm sold on the MEH technique, just based on the one DIY sample that I've had for two years.  None of the other horn-loaded loudspeakers can really claim coherence of driver alignment+absence of lobing. 

 

There are direct radiating loudspeakers that sometimes get close to 1/4 wavelength vertical separation (or less) at their crossover interference wavelengths, but the many drawbacks of direct radiating loudspeakers is something that I would guess I don't have to mention on this particular forum. 

 

Chris

So why are direct radiators so darn popular among "high end" speakers at those shows??? ..............and horns so unpopular??? except for a few non Klipsch vendors.

[Chris A]

That's become quite clear to me...because so many people never listen to their music at anything close to concert volume using "high end loudspeakers", and they're typically accommodated to CDs and other music sources that have severe mastering EQ applied to all of them...

 

The other thing that I've found is that many of those guys really aren't used to hearing music being reproduced to sound like an original live, unamplified performance (assuming that it ever existed since so many recordings nowadays are recorded track by track).  Instead they've accommodated to "loudspeaker sound" that's been their main listening diet for essentially all of their lives.  So they expect the lack of dynamics, rolled off bass (especially below 50 Hz), mushy kick drum, second harmonic phantom bass with exaggerated highs to make their music "sizzle"--like all the "female jazz singer" videos you see on YouTube videos of loudspeakers playing music.

 

I'm aware that this is fairly controversial since many of those guys take great pains to avoid being named as someone that prefers that type of sound that isn't "real life".  It's at this point that I go find real (acoustic instrument) musicians to audition loudspeakers--i.e., the same "untrained ears" that tend to select Khorns over Wilson loudspeakers

 

(I'm now laughing at Toole's writings on who makes the best listeners).

 

Chris

[Chris A]

On 11/24/2017 at 8:04 AM, jazzmessengers said:

 

Why would a design like this allow the bass bin to have wide coverage at say 450 Hz (using your steep crossover to K-402) and have the deep bass extension of the Jubilee bin?

I stumbled across a captured phantom view drawing from some time ago of how to fix a bifurcated bass bin horn mouth (i.e., dual source diffraction) this AM.  Some guy in New York City area ("Levan Horn") did this to an existing design:

 

[Khornukopia]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:48 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

So why are direct radiators so darn popular among "high end" speakers at those shows??? ..............and horns so unpopular??? except for a few non Klipsch vendors.

Klipsch should exhibit the Jubilee at the Consumer Electronics Show.

[ClaudeJ1]

17 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

Klipsch should exhibit the Jubilee at the Consumer Electronics Show.

I totally agree, now that they have a veneer front available.

 

[Droogne]

On 24-11-2017 at 8:21 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

A great compromise would be to build a Quarter Pie horn with an Eminence 4 ohm woofer for $99 per bin.

Are there good 12" Quarter Pie horns (or similar designs) for center speakers? Or does this design require a corner / only work in a LR setup?  

[ClaudeJ1]

29 minutes ago, Droogne said:

Are there good 12" Quarter Pie horns (or similar designs) for center speakers? Or does this design require a corner / only work in a LR setup?  

No corner required. Tromprof has built a center version as well as some rear Quarter Pie variants. You could slim it down for the right 12" driver by ripping 13 inch panels instead of 15 1/2 and cut the rear corner off with a bigger rear reflector, but the LENGTH of the horn is what give the 51 Hz. cutoff, so changing the dimensions would make it a different horn altogether.

[Droogne]

On 25-11-2017 at 5:29 PM, Chris A said:

I stumbled across a captured phantom view drawing from some time ago of how to fix a bifurcated bass bin horn mouth (i.e., dual source diffraction) this AM.  Some guy in New York City area ("Levan Horn") did this to an existing design:

 

That is one biiiiig horn! Thats an EV cab right? Found some designs which use only half of the bin (height wise) which could make a pretty good center.

 

PS, just want to share the happy news I'm might have found a way to order the K-402 in my area! Took a while, and some extensive emailing, but it's looking good! 

[Droogne]

Got it! GOT IT! GOOOOOT IT! @Chris A @DizRotus

 

"Hi Maarten,

 

We can offer KPT-402 horn with two different driver.

 KPT-402-MF mid-bass Tractrix® horn coupled to the Klipsch-1133 2” exit titanium driver from KPT-Jubilee535 speaker or

KPT-402-HF Tractrix® horn with K-1132 2” exit titanium compression from KPT-942 speaker."

 

Would you happen to know how good the K1132 is? Better thank the K69? Or if those drivers could be sold? (in that case I could buy the K1132 or 33, sell it, and buy the faital HF200 or 20AT)

 

In any case, now I know where to buy and how much it costs. Financially I can make it if I'm able to sell my LaScala center and pair of Choruses II. This will probably take a while, but I'm hoping I can order it so I have it by end of January/begin february. Exciting times ahead!

 

[Chris A]

You can also special order a K-691 driver on that K-402 horn (i.e., you can tell your dealer this--and if he has any issues, tell him to email Roy.Delgado@klipsch.com for the details).   Many people on this forum have done that to date.

 

This is the driver used on the 2-way (home version) Jubilee that has Roy's Xilica crossover settings that are available already.  Otherwise, you're going to need to run something like REW (Room EQ Wizard) and a calibration microphone to measure the K-1132 frequency response on the K-402 crossed at whatever low frequency you choose to whatever bass bin you'll use.  The settings that Klipsch Professional has posted in their settings file assumes that the K-402/K-1132 is firing through a cinema screen. 

 

[If you can get the horn only from your dealer then I'd recommend instead a Faital Pro HF20AT driver for about the same street price as the OEM street price of the K-691, i.e., a B&C driver.  I've got the active crossover settings for that Faital Pro driver that I've measured myself, as well as the Klipsch K-691 and TAD TD-4002 drivers.]

 

Chris

[Droogne]

1 minute ago, Chris A said:

You can also special order a K-691 driver on that K-402 horn (i.e., you can tell your dealer this--and if he has any issues, tell him to email Roy.Delgado@klipsch.com for the details).   Many people on this forum have done that to date.

 

This is the driver used on the 2-way (home version) Jubilee that has Roy's Xilica crossover settings that are available already.  Otherwise, you're going to need to run something like REW (Room EQ Wizard) and a calibration microphone to measure the K-1132 frequency response on the K-402 crossed at whatever low frequency you choose to whatever bass bin you'll use.  The settings that Klipsch Professional has posted in their settings file assumes that the K-402/K-1132 is firing through a cinema screen. 

 

[If you can get the horn only from your dealer then I'd recommend instead a Faital Pro HF20AT driver for about the same street price as the OEM street price of the K-691, i.e., a B&C driver.  I've got the active crossover settings for that Faital Pro driver that I've measured myself, as well as the Klipsch K-691 and TAD TD-4002 drivers.]

 

Chris

I've asked about the K69A (is this one cheaper or more expensive?), if I can buy it without driver, or if theyd want to buy the drivers (small chance, but who knows). I've also posted a "for sale" on local second hand sites to see if there is interest in the drivers. Before I buy the K-402 I also need to find me my Xilica of course. I'll also have the REW + UMIK1, so with some guidance I think I can pull it off with the K1132. If I find a 20AT Id definitely buy that one, but Faital says they have been discontinued.. 

[Chris A]

As I understand it, the K-1132 is actually a slightly better driver (with the custom phase plug design by Roy over the K-1133 midrange driver configuration).  The reason for the use of the K-69, K-69-A, and the K-691 drivers is lower cost than the K-1132.  So the K--1132 is preferable if you're okay with measuring them in-room and the cost difference.

 

If you wish, I can help with finding the REW EQ filters for the K-1132.  I've helped with perhaps a dozen other people using email to transfer the REW ".mdat" files for other drivers, using REW's equalization optimizer to dial them in, including whatever bass bins you choose to use. 

 

The Faital Pro HF20AT might have been discontinued but there are apparently a lot of them on the market now at good prices, e.g., https://smile.amazon.com/Faital-Pro-HF20AT-Driver-8/dp/B01DVUQRH0.  The other HF200 series drivers are very close to the HF20AT driver, which itself was chosen by Bob Crites because the EQ required was somewhat easier for correction using passive crossover networks.  I assume that all of the Faital Pro HF200 series drivers can be easily EQed flat using a DSP crossover, and will sound about like the HF20AT. 

 

Chris

[Droogne]

14 minutes ago, Chris A said:

As I understand it, the K-1132 is actually a slightly better driver (with the custom phase plug design by Roy over the K-1133 midrange driver configuration).  The reason for the use of the K-69, K-69-A, and the K-691 drivers is lower cost than the K-1132.  So the K--1132 is preferable if you're okay with measuring them in-room and the cost difference.

 

If you wish, I can help with finding the REW EQ filters for the K-1132.  I've helped with perhaps a dozen other people using email to transfer the REW ".mdat" files for other drivers, using REW's equalization optimizer to dial them in, including whatever bass bins you choose to use. 

 

The Faital Pro HF20AT might have been discontinued but there are apparently a lot of them on the market now at good prices, e.g., https://smile.amazon.com/Faital-Pro-HF20AT-Driver-8/dp/B01DVUQRH0.  The other HF200 series drivers are very close to the HF20AT driver, which itself was chosen by Bob Crites because the EQ required was somewhat easier for correction using passive crossover networks.  I assume that all of the Faital Pro HF200 series drivers can be easily EQed flat using a DSP crossover, and will sound about like the HF20AT. 

 

Chris

I'm planning on using HF200 all over my setup, so buying them first to save money is not a useless cost (as I can move them to the rear LaScalas) when I decide to move up to the more expensive 20AT or something even more high end (BePB945, TAD or JBL 2445 with Be-true extension diaphragms). K69 might not be a bad place to start, I'm hoping it can significantly reduce the cost. PS included the specs of the K1332 which I got from the dealer. 

[Chris A]

The K-69-A is apparently no longer available: it's a P.Audio BM-D750 Series I driver, unmodified, and was the least expensive alternative at that time.  I've got two of them on hand, one of which I currently use in the K-402-MEH center loudspeaker.  They originally came with my 2-way Jubilees in December of 2007 (wow...ten years of owning Jubs now ).

 

Chris

[Droogne]

21 minutes ago, Chris A said:

The K-69-A is apparently no longer available: it's a P.Audio BM-D750 Series I driver, unmodified, and was the least expensive alternative at that time.  I've got two of them on hand, one of which I currently use in the K-402-MEH center loudspeaker.  They originally came with my 2-way Jubilees in December of 2007 (wow...ten years of owning Jubs now ).

 

Chris

Whoa, I can buy that BM-D750 for less then half of the HF200! Would be great if I could buy the K-402 without horn (not expecting to, but oh well a man can hope  ) 

 

PS, I'm only 22 so if I get my Jubs, I'm probably in for a hell of a long ride with them