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Speedy6963

Forte III listening fatigue

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Anyone else think the Forte III is too bright ?? 

 

I measured ( at 1 meter ) the mid to tweeter region tonight and I see why I feel fatigue with Forte III, looks like Klipsch has the tweeter running almost 5db louder then the mid.

 

Now to figure out what to do about it.....

 

As a test I stuffed some polyfill in the tweeter horn and it is much better....

f3ht.jpg

Edited by Speedy6963

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45 minutes ago, Speedy6963 said:

Anyone else think the Forte III is too bright ?? 

 

I measured ( at 1 meter ) the mid to tweeter region tonight and I see why I feel fatigue with Forte III, looks like Klipsch has the tweeter running almost 5db louder then the mid.

 

Now to figure out what to do about it.....

 

As a test I stuffed some polyfill in the tweeter horn and it is much better....

f3ht.jpg

 

What does it measure at listening position?

 

Be sure to include the response at 1K, the traditional reference point.

 

I'd be inclined to see what it measures and sounds like with Audyssey or REW EQ.

 

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Can you describe the calibration of your microphone, and the incidence of mike (0 degree on-axis or 90 degree)?  Can you also run a sweep from below 100 Hz to 20 kHz?  And perhaps make the plot vertical divisions 2 dB instead of 5 dB?  The 1/48th octave smoothing looks good.

 

It could be that if you measure 10 to 20 degrees off-axis horizontally or vertically that you are going to see a totally different picture.

 

JMTC.

 

Chris

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14 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Can you describe the calibration of your microphone, and the incidence of mike (0 degree on-axis or 90 degree)?  Can you also run a sweep from below 100 Hz to 20 kHz?  And perhaps make the plot vertical divisions 2 dB instead of 5 dB?  The 1/48th octave smoothing looks good.

 

It could be that if you measure 10 to 20 degrees off-axis horizontally or vertically that you are going to see a totally different picture.

 

JMTC.

 

Chris

This isnt my first go around, I also own modified khorns, heresy 3 and cornwall 3 and have built a few pair of my own design.

 

The mic is a UMIK-1 calibrated, I was at 1 meter and 0 deg and height was 1/2 between mid/tweet.  pointless in looking below 400hz I am only pointing out that Klipsch dialed the Forte III in with a "hot" tweeter. Some like that, I am very sensitive to it. A couple of reviewers also comment on the "hot tweeter"

I love the speakers, just need to deal with the slightly "hot" tweeter, this temp fix of polyfill actually works really nice. gives about a 3db reduction

IMG_20171124_030534.jpg

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Yes, but with only a small portion of the frequency response shown it's easy to say "it's too hot", instead of something like, "the lower treble seems to sag somewhat between 1-7 kHz".  Is there a reason why you don't show the full spectrum? 

 

I've found that the frequency response below 400 Hz is critical to understanding what is occurring.  For instance, it may say that you've placed the F-IIIs in the room where they have little to no boundary gain to support their overall FR.  Then they sound thin and strident overall. 

 

Chris

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5 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Yes, but with only a small portion of the frequency response shown it's easy to say "it's too hot", instead of something like, "the lower treble seems to sag somewhat between 1-7 kHz".  Is there a reason why you don't show the full spectrum? 

 

I've found that the frequency response below 400 Hz is critical to understanding what is occurring.  For instance, it may say that you've placed the F-IIIs in the room where they have little to no boundary gain to support their overall FR.  Then they sound thin and strident overall. 

 

Chris

Bass is great, mid is great, treble is great with polyfill shoved in the tweeter horn, lol

 

If I get a chance I will do full sweeps from listening position later today while the wife is out in black friday hell, lol

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6 hours ago, Speedy6963 said:

Anyone else think the Forte III is too bright ??  (snip) Now to figure out what to do about it.....

One of the problems I see right off the bat is you used the emotionally charged word "fatigue."  That's a negative subjective conclusion, one that is hard for others to quantify.  I applaud you for using charts and graphs to support your conclusion but not all of us read charts and graphs.  I would rather hear you describe if a middle C on the piano is accurate, or if there is sibilance in female voice.  That would help me understand what you are hearing.

 

I know you only stuffed polyfil into the tweeter as an experiment, but surely there are other things you can do to test taming the highs.

 

What electronics are you using?  If you have a computer try using the EQ software.  If a receiver it will have tone controls.  If an AVR depending on the model it will have a large array of listening modes and room correction software.  You might also try to toe-in or toe-out your speakers to find a comfortable sweet spot.  You could try running your speakers with the grills on which could help to attenuate the highs.

 

You also might want to consider you are comparing you speakers to whatever else you are used to listening to.  Perhaps the old speakers were tame in the highs and the Forte is bright by comparison.  I haven't heard them so I sure don't know.

 

If you'll invite me over I'd be happy to listen with you and give you a better opinion.  B)

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MOST people consider Klipsch to be bright. This isn't news. If you have Klipsch, you gotta put in some work.

Room treatments and EQ in the digital domain have worked for me.

IMO, people that don't consider them to be bright or strident in some way have been listening to them for so long they're used to that kind of sound. Otherwise, something has to be done to tame them. Then, IMO is when Klipsch REALLY shines.

Jamming ping pong balls into your horns, covering them up with tissue or towels etc. is a joke and a waste of time.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

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I've noticed historically similar issues when playing my Chorus II's at louder than normal volumes. What I have done in the past is point the speakers straight forward if I'm planning on "energizing" the whole room with loud music, less "in your face" brightness, otherwise at normal, lower listening levels I have the speakers aimed right at me in the listening position. I wouldn't give up yet on them, lots of things to try to get this sorted out. Congrats by the way on the new speakers! 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, SWL said:

Room treatments and EQ in the digital domain have worked for me.

Of course when you start looking at the music tracks themselves, you may change your opinion of what the problem actually is.  If the music played wasn't pre-emphasized at frequencies above 1 Hz and attenuated below ~200 Hz, you probably wouldn't be talking about this subject.  After demastering EQ is applied to these tracks, the problem almost completely disappears. 

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After taking the time to read through Chris' posts and files on the mastering subject, I'm inclined to agree with him.

 

Instead of re-voicing our loudspeakers to fix our music, we should probably start learning how to fix our music.

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18 hours ago, Speedy6963 said:

Anyone else think the Forte III is too bright ?? 

 

I measured ( at 1 meter ) the mid to tweeter region tonight and I see why I feel fatigue with Forte III, looks like Klipsch has the tweeter running almost 5db louder then the mid.

 

Now to figure out what to do about it.....

 

As a test I stuffed some polyfill in the tweeter horn and it is much better....

f3ht.jpg

 

 

Welcome Speedy!

 

It seems to me that we are talking about two things that may be different. 

 

First, the graph you presented.  Compared to the response around 4 K, the curve about 8K can be described as about 4 to 5 dB elevated.  Compared to the response at about 2.5K,  the extreme highs are only about 1 to 3 dB elevated.  Further questions are what is the floating central tendency of the whole graph, 20 to 20K, or, what is the curve like relative to the conventional 1 K point. 

 

Second, what caused it to sound bright and fatiguing?  Merely elevated high frequencies?  Or high frequency distortion earlier in the chain revealed by the Forte III, that would be veiled by most speakers?  Or a lack of balance that makes the sound harsh?

 

IMO, psycho-acoustically, whether a speaker sounds like it has a hot tweeter or not may depend on the level of the bass.   The so called Harman Curve (humorously referred to as "The Curve"),  preferred by most listeners in Harman's trials, has about a 9 dB, smooth, downward slope from the highest in the  bass (@~~ 20 Hz) to the lowest in the treble (@~~ 20K hz).  My preferred house curve has the bass about like that, with the midrange  lower (almost flat), and the treble flat.

 

It may not be a coincidence the Harman folk have found that people like the downward facing dog curve and that Chris and others have found that there is a pre-emphasis above 1K Hz and attenuation below about 200 Hz in many commercial recordings(!)

 

 Back when I did my own recording, I liked my playback system more or less flat.  IMO, commercial music recordings (even classical, some of the time) almost always need "The Curve," or something close to it.  Movies are a mixed bag.  The music tracks in a movie often need "The Curve," but the true LFE (not the "bass management" bass) generally don't.  

 

See J. Gordon Holt's article "Down with Flat" in the Stereophile archives.

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I am wondering if OP is sitting very near or on axis.

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Sorry if I missed it, but what electronics are you using, and what sound sources?  Is everything fully broken in?

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18 hours ago, Speedy6963 said:

This isnt my first go around, I also own modified khorns, heresy 3 and cornwall 3 and have built a few pair of my own design.

 

The mic is a UMIK-1 calibrated, I was at 1 meter and 0 deg and height was 1/2 between mid/tweet.  pointless in looking below 400hz I am only pointing out that Klipsch dialed the Forte III in with a "hot" tweeter. Some like that, I am very sensitive to it. A couple of reviewers also comment on the "hot tweeter"

I love the speakers, just need to deal with the slightly "hot" tweeter, this temp fix of polyfill actually works really nice. gives about a 3db reduction

IMG_20171124_030534.jpg

 

I would love to have a pair of IIIs but I would be very upset if I had to stuff polyfil into a pair of $3600 speakers!!  Just me....

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19 hours ago, wdecho said:

When it comes to crossovers and attenuation there is no one size fits all. Attenuate the treble to your taste and room. Simple solution using some cheap L-pads or a couple of resistors installed on the tweeter. Many speakers come with L-pads installed as should Klipsch. More happy customers. 

I agree that if klipsch built in L-pads the could have double the audience !

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19 hours ago, Peter P. said:

Just tweak the tweeter level with an equalizer. It's that simple.

No eq on this setup, 1970's pioneer turntable, pioneer reel to reel and then a 845 single ended triode amp.

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17 hours ago, wvu80 said:

One of the problems I see right off the bat is you used the emotionally charged word "fatigue."  That's a negative subjective conclusion, one that is hard for others to quantify.  I applaud you for using charts and graphs to support your conclusion but not all of us read charts and graphs.  I would rather hear you describe if a middle C on the piano is accurate, or if there is sibilance in female voice.  That would help me understand what you are hearing.

 

I know you only stuffed polyfil into the tweeter as an experiment, but surely there are other things you can do to test taming the highs.

 

What electronics are you using?  If you have a computer try using the EQ software.  If a receiver it will have tone controls.  If an AVR depending on the model it will have a large array of listening modes and room correction software.  You might also try to toe-in or toe-out your speakers to find a comfortable sweet spot.  You could try running your speakers with the grills on which could help to attenuate the highs.

 

You also might want to consider you are comparing you speakers to whatever else you are used to listening to.  Perhaps the old speakers were tame in the highs and the Forte is bright by comparison.  I haven't heard them so I sure don't know.

 

If you'll invite me over I'd be happy to listen with you and give you a better opinion.  B)

No eq on this setup, 1970's pioneer turntable, pioneer reel to reel and then a 845 single ended triode amp.

 

I have MANY speakers from heresy's to cornwalls and Khorns and new onkyo's https://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=D-77NE&class=Speaker and ascend sierra 2 http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM2/srm2.html and KEF Q100 and KEF Q350 and KEF R900 and VINTAGE pioneer HPM100's and pioneer DSS-7 ( berylium tweeter, boron mid's ) and more.... Only speakers to ever fatigue my ears this way are these Forte III and my Klipsch Horns when new ( I have since completely change the horns and crossover and no more problem )

 

From experience with much different hardware any hump in the response in the 7k-10k area can make speakers fatiguing ...

 

I just hooked up the sierra 2's next to the forte's and they sound great !  But they dont get very loud with the 15 watts that are available ( only 86db eff. )

IMG_20171125_005937.jpg

Edited by Speedy6963

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