Rp 450C overkill for 160m?

[yepimonfire]

I just purchased the 160ms to replace my 150ms, which will be moved to the surrounds. Currently, I’m using a 250c for a center. As far as pure surface area for displacement goes, the 6.5” woofers of the 160ms have a surface area of 33” square, while the dual 5.25” drivers in the 250c have a combined surface area of 43”.

 

I am well aware the center channel is the most important speaker, since 60-70% of the entire soundtrack, including loud, dynamic effects like explosions are anchored to it. The 250c has the same sensitivity as the 160m, and is 3dB more efficient than my current 150m, which seems about right, since Audyssey has calibrated my center 4dB lower than my 150m.

 

Do I actually need the extra headroom from the 450c or would I benefit from it at all? My room is 2000 cu ft and the couch is 11’ from the front, I’m a bit crazy with the volume levels, usually watching movies with the receiver set to -15dB to -5dB.

 

I’m currently running a 5.1.2 atmos setup with 150ms as the fronts, a 250c center, and r-15ms for the surrounds. The top middle are rb 10s mounted to the ceiling with an omnimount. All speakers except the ceiling speakers are crossed over at 60hz, ceiling speakers (rb 10s) are crossed over at 80hz. I will be moving the 150ms to the rear once the 160ms arrive. The heights and surrounds are only 6’ away, so they won’t require as much power. My surrounds are currently calibrated at 2dB less than the front.

 

My main goal is having ample headroom to handle the volume level I watch at. With movies at -5dB, this means each speaker needs to be able to produce a peak spl of 100dB. My receiver is rated 80wpc @8ohms. With multichannel content blasting away, I’d expect this figure to land somewhere around 60wpc. If you subtract the 4dB Klipsch tacks on to their sensitivity rating for room gain, that’s 92dB a 1m for the 250c. At 60w and 11’ away, that’s still around 100dB. The 450c only adds an extra 1dB.

 

Any opinions?

 

 

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[willland]

1 hour ago, yepimonfire said:

My receiver is rated 80wpc @8ohms.

Is that in stereo or "all channels driven" 20Hz to 20kHz?

 

I say go with the RC-450C if you can afford it and really want it.

 

Bill

[derrickdj1]

I would favor the 450.  Do things sound stained now?  The larger center will tie in the cohesiveness of the front stage more.

[dtel]

That's kind of funny, asking people here about overkill. 

[RoboKlipsch]

imo there is little benefit.

more drivers then the avr just turns them down anyway

 

ill repeat this forever....yes you can try to overcome clarity issues by forcing more spl out of a source

but clarity comes from reducing near reflections not by increasing spl or speaker size.

 

my room is 30ft deep and the 250c kicks axx and can be clearly heard beyond that in the kitchen

and theres almost no treatment in that room

 

you have tons of headroom.  try turning the center up 8db to hear.

dont leave it that way....but youll hear it.

 

buying a bigger center wont be clearer or louder in this case

but you might turn up your center say 2db if the room is not treated

its a good solution to a more complicated problem

 

2 more drivers increases the potential output.....at already insane levels

the only other difference is the crossover which matters but wont sound different in this case

[RoboKlipsch]

at 11ft i compute the center can do 105db continuously and roughly 112db peak...if sent that much power

 

you are currently listening at a level using 90 to 100db of that 105db capability

if you start listening at 0 to -5 then you might want to upgrade

 

 

[yepimonfire]

That's kind of funny, asking people here about overkill. [emoji47][emoji14]

We’re the kind of people who mount Heresy’s to the ceiling for Atmos, or place commercial cinema speakers in an average sized living room [emoji3]

 

Maybe everyone else is just under doing it? Lol

 

I guess the benefit is we don’t really have to worry about whether or not our lower powered AV receiver has enough headroom.

 

 

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[yepimonfire]

imo there is little benefit.
more drivers then the avr just turns them down anyway
 
ill repeat this forever....yes you can try to overcome clarity issues by forcing more spl out of a source
but clarity comes from reducing near reflections not by increasing spl or speaker size.
 
my room is 30ft deep and the 250c kicks axx and can be clearly heard beyond that in the kitchen
and theres almost no treatment in that room
 
you have tons of headroom.  try turning the center up 8db to hear.
dont leave it that way....but youll hear it.
 
buying a bigger center wont be clearer or louder in this case
but you might turn up your center say 2db if the room is not treated
its a good solution to a more complicated problem
 
2 more drivers increases the potential output.....at already insane levels
the only other difference is the crossover which matters but wont sound different in this case

My room is very well treated. I do not have any issues whatsoever with clarity from the center. I’m just talking headroom. If the avr turns the bigger center down 3dB, that means at the same volume, it only takes half as much power, freeing up headroom for the rest of the speakers.

I’ve always been of the opinion that it makes a lot more sense to get more efficient speakers than to just throw stupid amount of power at them.


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[RoboKlipsch]

True but at what point do you get more power vs larger speakers?  In the 90s youre about as high as it gets in most consumer equipment.  Theres far more value imo to getting an external amp for your existing speakers than getting a bigger speaker.

 

The dynamics of the avr cannot match another amp.  Food for thought.  Its not just headroom of course.  Kudos on treating your room.

[Scrappydue]

I’d take bigger more efficient speakers over an amp any day of the week. But that’s just me.  And I’m taking big speakers. Pro series and heritage stuff. 

[yepimonfire]

I’d take bigger more efficient speakers over an amp any day of the week. But that’s just me.  And I’m taking big speakers. Pro series and heritage stuff. 

Totally agree. Even with regular reference stuff I can get plenty of spl with a cheap Chinese mini amp. My buddy has a pair of icon bookshelves and one of those lepai amps, which was tested by old school stereo on YouTube to just barely do 7 watts into 8 ohms and we tested it out and cranked the volume until we could hear distortion. Managed to get 97dB at 8’ away, which is way louder than he cares to listen.

Personally, I’ve heard absolutely no difference in sound quality from one amp to the next, and I can’t objectively find any reason why a properly designed solid state amp would sound different. Rather put that money into speakers, where one CAN hear a big difference.

[RoboKlipsch]

Every point is valid but you are talking around your original question.

 

will you benefit from more HEADROOM from the larger 450c

 

you will get 1-2db of headroom that may or may not free up the other channels depending upon how the power supply works. and you already have a bunch of headroom based upon how you listen at those levels.

 

Externally amp the center and suddenly your 80watt max could be 400watt peaks...representing over 7db of headroom.  and if you think different amps have no benefit be sure to ask the same people in this thread how many have Emotiva or other external amps...or just look at signatures.

 

i have the very same speakers as you and have more power available.  i run 7 channels and denons are discrete.  i do not run an external amp on them.

 

for me, there was a reason i chose rp160ms...after having giant floorstanding speakers.   you could upgrade your rp160ms to rf7s and get more headroom that way too.

 

but my long but simple take is there is no benefit headroom-wise to the rp450c.

is there benefit to a larger center qualitatively?  yes potentially.

 

but the greatest benefit in that regard would not be an rp450c but in fact another rp160m.  it would be superior qualitatively to either the rp250c or 450c because in your well treated room you would have a seamless soundstage.

 

 

[BernardLVH]

Never cheap out on the center channel. I've made that mistake twice now. Once ordering my older B&W's smaller 600 series center and then having to upgrade it, and now I need to upgrade my 440C cuz my new 65inch TV won't fit on it. Should have got the 450C immediately. Anyway, lesson learnt. My new B&W 600 series have the higher end CM series as a center and I have now ordered the RC 64III for my Klipsch RP 260Fs and RP 250Fs. Never making that mistake again. 

The center channel is the most important.

[ArtPeers]

On 11/28/2017 at 3:16 PM, RoboKlipsch said:

imo there is little benefit.

more drivers then the avr just turns them down anyway

 

ill repeat this forever....yes you can try to overcome clarity issues by forcing more spl out of a source

but clarity comes from reducing near reflections not by increasing spl or speaker size.

 

my room is 30ft deep and the 250c kicks axx and can be clearly heard beyond that in the kitchen

and theres almost no treatment in that room

 

you have tons of headroom.  try turning the center up 8db to hear.

dont leave it that way....but youll hear it.

 

buying a bigger center wont be clearer or louder in this case

but you might turn up your center say 2db if the room is not treated

its a good solution to a more complicated problem

 

2 more drivers increases the potential output.....at already insane levels

the only other difference is the crossover which matters but wont sound different in this case

 

It's not coming through clearly. I probably need bigger woofers.