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KLF-10's or RF-3's on 6L6 SET/SEP amp work in small room?


amb3cog

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Hey guys. I joined this forum recently, and was very warmly welcomed, but unfortunately haven't had much time with the holidays to get back here. 

 

So here's the deal. I went against all my budget objectives, common sense, and plans while buying my amp. After looking for weeks to buy a nice amp I decided I'd had enough looking. And after reading everywhere how SET amps are so great. I bought one. This one too be exact:

 

http://glowinthedarkaudio.com/vital-SE6L6.html

 

It's actually a SET/SEP switchable w/ adjustable feedback. And to be honest. I was blown the f@ck away! I'm not even fooling. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. The clarity, the separation, the dynamics, the.... just WOW!!! Blown away! 

 

With a couple of exceptions of course, because nothing is perfect. They are volume(SPL), and bass. So I did more research, and decided that Klipsch would be a great choice to hold me over, until I could buy/build something really nice. They're easy to find, and reasonable. People seem to have a love/hate thing with Klipsch. Sure a few don't care either way, but it seems people either love them or have them. 

 

So I took my chances, and found a pair of KG 3.5's for cheap on Craigslist. Brought them home, and again WOW! These things are amazing! Put me in the love category for sure! I have some pretty nice vintage speakers to compare them too, and we'll it's no comparison. Tell me I can only keep one pair of my speakers, and it will be these, at least if it's with tubes. I haven't tried them in SS yet. Maybe this week I'll do that. 

 

But again. I want more volume. Just for those rare times when no ones home, and I want to rock out. And I want more bass always. Not necessarily low boom type bass, but tight bass. Mid bass I guess I mean. Like the kick drum hurting your chest type of bass. Now I know I'm not going to get perfect chest thumping bass from an 8 watt SET amp, but I want better then what I have. 

 

So that's two pairs of Klipsch that I would buy right now that are close to me. KLF-10's ($350), and RF-3 ($200). I have a 12x12 room with 8 ft ceilings, and not much room to work with. The KLF would be as big as I could go, the RF would fit in much better. But I'm not sure it's a big enough of an upgrade from the 3.5's? 

 

So what I'm asking is. Will these be a pretty big upgrade? 4 more db would be plenty I think. I'd like 6db, but 4db would do nicely I'm sure, as the 3.5's are just right there, but not quite in SPL. And they're pretty good on bass, but not quite. 

 

I'm also wondering if the KLF isn't too much for such a small room? I also have concerns about how much room I'll need behind them for the port? 

 

Please tell me what you guys all think. I'm eventually building my own actively crossed speakers, but want something a little better then the KG's to hold me over, until I do. I actually have some drivers in the mail right now on their way to me as we speak. But that's another story. 

 

Thank you guys. :)

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Toughie in a way as both rear ported however, all things aside, either one. Rear ported not a bad thing as not much room needed for either to breathe with good bass.The RF-3 smaller but, for that size room, may give you what you need,

in my experience. Have a pair now without tube amplification. If in decent shape the KLF-10 maybe a bit more desirable market/owner wise, and larger yet not too much for your room. Think the KLF-10 maybe a better choice with tubes per previous owner of the KG-5.5;s which are similar to the 10's, in size, drivers. If money was a constraint, would go with the RF-3 if working correctly. Maybe any brightness  would be handled nicely by the tubes.

Good fortune and hope others will chime in.

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Congrats on the tube amp.  The amp is switchable from triode to pentode, wouldn't this make it ultralinear?.  I have only heard the RF 3 and can relate it to my experience with the RF 7 and 7 II use with tube amps.  The amp should work well with the Reference speakers.  As for volume, the Pentode mode should get quiet loud.

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25 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

Congrats on the tube amp.  The amp is switchable from triode to pentode, wouldn't this make it ultralinear?.  I have only heard the RF 3 and can relate it to my experience with the RF 7 and 7 II use with tube amps.  The amp should work well with the Reference speakers.  As for volume, the Pentode mode should get quiet loud.

Maybe that does make it ultralinear? I don't really know much about it, or tube amps in general. I just know it sounds great. And the Pentode mode does seem a bit louder, but not much really. It has more of an edge though, and that's what I use when I'm rocking out. But late at night for some smooth tunes I use the Triode setting. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, wdecho said:

Very nice looking. The Russian 6P3S tubes are one of my favorites. I think you are going to enjoy it. 

 

It came with 6L6EH which are really 6L6GC from Electro Harmonix (sp?). And 2 old GE 12AU7 for drivers, with 12AT7 for buffer, but he have me an NEC 12AD7 that I'm using now instead. 

 

I plan on getting some 6p3s,or 6p3se soon. Have you tried the 'e'  version? I've seen people say you have to get that, and others say they don't like them? 

 

Thank you everybody. It's a tough call. Especially since the KLF is known to have issues with the glue between  the baffle, and cabinet. And the RF being a lot cheaper. I'm afraid the KLF might be too much, and need work. Then I'm worried the RF won't be enough, and I'll have two more pairs to add to the stack that I'm not using. LOL

 

This will be 9 or 10. I'm running out of room, and money. :)

 

What about adding a sub, or subs to my KG's, and maybe even cutting them off at 80hz? I have a car audio sub, and amp. And I have 2 Boston Pro 12.5lf's I could buy/build boxes for, and get a cap, or something (HT preamp with high pass) to fit the KG's. That's similar to how my car stereo was set up, and that thing pounded like CRAZY! 

 

I'm eventually going to need to buy all this stuff anyway for my homemade speakers. So it's no big deal to buy it all. 

 

My worry is it still won't be loud enough. But I think cutting the lows out, and adding the sub would definitely give me a little more volume. 

 

I'm not sure what to do really. But $200 for the RF's isn't that big of a gamble. I just wish they were a little closer. My car has issues, unfortunately. And I'm a little paranoid about it. Last time I bought a pair of speakers far away my car blew up! But they're awesome speakers (Canton Quinto 540's). LOL

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If you do go with the 3's look at the speakers carefully for distortions, dent, dimples, etc. For $200 a good look at them may help in decision so, some good pics of all 4 ceremetallic gold color speakers a consideration. While they may well not interfere greatly on their sound, depending on the damage, it could come up if you  were looking to do a resell later on. Yes, car trouble. Also, worth considering as the weather can be challenging this time of year. Know you know all of this so...Have had the KG 5.5's and they are only as shy as the bass they were fed. Read some about the KLF-10 with a search here, if you want. Who knows, they may not have the problems with cabinet. Others know much more than I about the issue, when it came up and when it was addresses.Another thing is, it is hard to not look at the 2 speaker choices and not come away with appreciating the physical demensions of the two. Always fun deciding. At least you have a decent sounding tube amp. Congrats!

Edit: Who knows, maybe a set of Cornwall or Chorus may pop up for a song or a dance.

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Thanks for the advice billybob. I actually saw a pair of Chorus on the Boston, or similar Craigslist that's not too far from me, but $800. That's too much for what I'm looking to do. If I were to spend that much on a pair. I'd want CP-3's, or RF-7's maybe. I already passed on Forte II's because they're too wide. I am really tight on space. I like that style of speaker better actually, but need to do a tall, and narrow design. 

 

4 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

A 10 db increase will sound twice as loud.  A 3 db increase will double the power being used.

 

Ya know I've read its 10db's, I've read it's 6db's more times then I can count. Either way. Mine I said. The KG's are very close to getting as loud as I like. 95%+ of the time they are more then enough. So I really think 4 to 6 is enough. But I would love the full 10. And I'm going to build that eventually, and use this amp for either the mids, or highs and I'll get another to do the other. With SS on the bass. But anything from like 80hz-250hz up is getting SET, or SEP power. I need to do some experiments to finalize my plans first to decide. I may, or may not do open baffle. I have to try it first though. I'm doing that soon. I have a pair of Eminence Beta 12LTA, and ASD 1001 with waveguides on the way right now. For experimentation. I may just build a cornscalla or something similar in the end though. We'll see. I want to see how my room takes the open baffle, and I need to figure out how to do an active setup. I want better quality then minidsp, but not spend a fortune. So it's going to be a learning process for sure. 

 

 

4 hours ago, wdecho said:

These are the ones I recently purchased for a new build of mine.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Ip-Matched-Pair-Soviet-USSR-Era-6L6GC-6P3S-Vacuum-Tubes-Russia-Ships-USA/122208484248?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

 

Dirt cheap for a pair of NOS tubes shipped from USA. 

 

Yea I've been looking at that guy's stuff. He has a nice business going there. I found some E version's for like a dollar less, and those for even less then that. But I would trust him more I think. I actually want to try, and get a bunch from someone to save on shipping. I mean some nice NOS ones for the whole amp, not just the outputs. But I haven't found anyone that has everything I want at once. But I'm in no rush. My tubes are fine for now. 

 

3 hours ago, richieb said:

I have a box of 8x Never Used 6n3c-e (6L6/5881) I should sell if any one is interested. I will most likely throw them in the Garage Sale soon but seeing this post reminded me. Shipped to me directly from Mother Russia, OTK manufacturer. New. $70/case 

 

Are any, or all of those matched? Would you sell just two, or 4 even? 

 

Do any of you guys have a preference on the regular vs E version? 

 

This whole tube thing is so new to me. And I read a lot of conflicting things. Plus I don't really even know any specs on my amp. So I don't know. I'm confused. I need to try to email the guy who built it. The gentleman who sold it to me was great, but he's a photographer not a tube amp expert. So he couldn't answer all my questions on the amp. He did really try, but he just didn't know all the answers himself, and he's a busy guy. I don't really know much about it, or even what tubes it can use for sure. I don't know any of the voltages it can handle, etc. I know it's self biasing, and it will do a lot of different tubes. I wish I knew more though. 

 

Thank you all very much for your help. 

Andy B. 

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16 hours ago, amb3cog said:

Now I know I'm not going to get perfect chest thumping bass from an 8 watt SET amp, but I want better then what I have. 

 

 

 

It's unlikely that this amp is delivering more than 1.5-2 watts in triode mode and 5-6 watts in pentode mode which may explain why it doesn't seem quite powerful enough.  If you have a more powerful amp around (SS is fine), there's a very easy way to measure how much power you need to satisfy the listening level you desire.  All that is required is a multimeter with a 20V or lower AC scale (autoranging is fine), and a digital source with which you can play music and a couple of test tones:

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/170414-who-wants-to-measure-how-much-power-voltage-is-really-needed/&

15 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

The amp is switchable from triode to pentode, wouldn't this make it ultralinear?.

Not necessarily.  It's easy to switch between pentode and triode operation depending on how the circuit parameters have been chosen.

 

 

Maynard

 

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Ultra Linear has to be built into the output transformer with the special tap usually at around 40% to power the screens of the output tubes. Pentode powers the screens directly from the B+ power supply. Many folks like to describe Ultra Linear has having nearly the power and punch of Pentode with the mid range of Triode. 

 

 So it's pretty easy to implement a switch to allow Triode/Pentode or Triode/Ultra Linear, but an ultra linear tap would first have to be available in the output transformer.

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Thanks Maynard for that link. I'm going to look at that some more when I have time, and try it out. I do have quite a few SS receivers, and I use a digital source. I also have a meter. So I'm good to go. 

 

I'm thinking of contacting the guy with the RF's, and someone just posted a HH Scott 200 integrated on Craigslist I might grab too. Just to get an idea of what other tube stuff is like. And between the two I think I'll be happy. Maybe I could even do a biamp thing with the Scott on bass, and the 6l6 on the highs. 

 

Either way if will give me options, and let me hear what a PP factory amp sounds like to compare with my SE.

 

Thanks all

Andy B. 

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If you buy the RF-3's order up some new capacitors and resistors for the crossovers, I had a pair rebuilt a few months back and the change in crossover parts really made a big difference to my ears, brought them much closer to the performance level of my RF-5's but not quite, big improvement though. Parts cost me $40 and I paid a local repair guy $50 to swap parts, well worth it. 

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23 hours ago, NOSValves said:

Ultra Linear has to be built into the output transformer with the special tap usually at around 40% to power the screens of the output tubes. Pentode powers the screens directly from the B+ power supply. Many folks like to describe Ultra Linear has having nearly the power and punch of Pentode with the mid range of Triode. 

 

 So it's pretty easy to implement a switch to allow Triode/Pentode or Triode/Ultra Linear, but an ultra linear tap would first have to be available in the output transformer.

Thanks for the explanation.  So, an amp can use a switch to go from triode to pentod without being ultralinear.  Ultralinear is a design or amp topology thing.

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12 hours ago, amb3cog said:

I'm thinking of contacting the guy with the RF's, and someone just posted a HH Scott 200 integrated on Craigslist I might grab too. Just to get an idea of what other tube stuff is like. And between the two I think I'll be happy. Maybe I could even do a biamp thing with the Scott on bass, and the 6l6 on the highs. 

Let us know if you want to. If you get the threes, give them a good listen to see if they are keepers.:emotion-21:

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the smaller the room you plan to be in the larger the horn you want to keep the sound directional for as low as possible and the KLF10 has the larger horn. With dual 8 woofers the RF3 can push more air than a single ten can but the efficiency is not as good and so you will need a larger amp to get the output capability that the RF3 has to offer. So for small room with a small(er) amp the KLF10 make more sense. Good luck.

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