Baseline Settings for Pioneer Elite D3 MCACC Pro

[Quiet_Hollow]

The Pioneer Elite series amps pack a serious amount of DSP capability into a single unit. Like all good horn speakers, they [AVRs] are not simply plug and play. I'm posting my settings so that if anyone happens to run any of the big Heritage speakers, and use, or will soon be using a Pioneer AVR they'll have a decent audible benchmark from which to gauge their experience from.

 

Note: Arguably these setting are strictly my preference, but they have been cultivated through a few years of experimenting and comparative listening to a wide variety of music, movies, various headphones. Not to mention simply unplugging once in a while to enjoy the sounds of nature and humanity in real life. Think "starting point" and go from there.

 

Either through the iControlAV5 app or via the remote Receiver-Main/Audio P. (parameter) menu:

 

PQLS - OFF  This is a signal clocking feature unique to Pioneer branded Blu-ray players which I do not own, otherwise I would have this turned on.

EQ - ON This is the response profile the DSP develops for your system when running a MCACC sweep, which I highly recommend the ALL Channel Adjust feature when doing so.

Standing Wave - ON

Phase Control - ON

Auto Phase Control - ON

LFE ATT (Attenuation) - ON but set to (0)

Tone - BYPASS

Auto Sound Retriever (ASR) - OFF This feature is a big offender, the unit ships with this engaged. Turn it off unless all you plan to listen to is 128k MP3.

Digital Noise Reduction (DNR) - OFF Don't confuse this with the Dynamic Range Compression (DRC) feature found in the Home menu.

Dialog Enhancement - OFF

X-Curve - (-0.5)

Audio Scaler - OFF

Hi-Bit 32 - OFF

Digital Filter - SLOW

Up Sampling - OFF

Virtual Depth - OFF

Virtual Speakers - MANUAL

Virtual Height - OFF

Virtual Wide - OFF

Virtual SB - OFF

 

Other features only listed via the remote:

 

Fixed PCM - OFF

DRC - OFF

Input ATT - OFF

C. Spread - OFF

 

When running MCACC, selection of the time window is critical to the resultant sound. Review the reverb charts and select a time where the lowest bass frequencies plateau. If you don't like what you hear, document your findings and try a new setting up or down. This is what you paid for. No other unit has this capability nor flexibility, but it requires some work on the owner's part.

 

I stress this again, getting the DSP time window wrong will result in crap. Off to one side yields a bright, harsh sound. The other will yield a sucked out experience devoid of any reverberant field,  at no fault of the speakers or amplifiers.

 

When watching movies, I'm in the "Surround" listening mode...the unit will automatically detect the bitstream and display it.

For 2-ch I'm either in "Stereo" or "Neo X: Music" listening mode.

 

I steer clear of the AUTO Surround, ALC (Auto Level Correction), and Optimum Surround listening modes as I found they simply crush the sound field. I also do not employ the Direct and Pure Direct listening modes except for when running diagnostics, as they defeat the efforts of the DSP.

 

[Schu]

I also felt timing was critical and did not rely 100%on mcacc for final distance figures. I spent a lot of time going up and down using very small increments until I arrived at a spot I felt was close to ideal for me. There are still times when using 5.1 that I can hear a smearing or echo of the image, but usually it winds up being from the recording itself.

[derrickdj1]

Boy, how refreshing to not be on an Auddysee thread, lol.  I don't usually change distance settings.  I think what Tom allude it to was changing the time position in manual MCACC adv. EQ from 50-70 ms to something like 30-50ms can make a world of difference on how the top and bottom end of the sound.

 

I also don't use the ACL, Optimum Surround, direct or pure direct.  I do employ the Hbit since 99% of my music is digital.  Upsampling is set to 4X.  No on DRC, DNR, ASR.  This may sound like gibberish  to people not using MCACC, lol.  We have our own private club on the forum, he, he.

[wuzzzer]

Getting mine tomorrow!  Can't wait!

[ka7niq]

I have a Pioneer VSX 94 THX that has MCACC

And the Pioneer I am getting back soon from my Son has the D3 amps

I am more used to Audyssey, and initially did not like MCACC as much as Audyssey, until I played with it. Now, I like it MORE  

I am still playing, and for the sake of this thread, more reading, though those people don't :count: as much to me, because most are not Klipsch Owners http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1112470-official-pioneer-mcacc-thread.html

BUMP

[derrickdj1]

1. Run Full MCACC

2. Set all speakers to small, XO between 50- 80 Hz and then run Auto MCACC(I usually leave the XO were MCACC sets it)

3.  In preset 4, copy 1,2 or 3 depending on which you like

4. Under preset 4, do Manual MCACC, eq adv. then professional EQ

5. Set time window to 30-50 ms and run.

6. Report back your findings

 

I am assuming you are using a sub.  This will not interfere with hearing your speaker since the XO means you will only miss one or 2 octaves out of the 10 going from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.

[ka7niq]

23 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

1. Run Full MCACC

2. Set all speakers to small, XO between 50- 80 Hz and then run Auto MCACC(I usually leave the XO were MCACC sets it)

3.  In preset 4, copy 1,2 or 3 depending on which you like

4. Under preset 4, do Manual MCACC, eq adv. then professional EQ

5. Set time window to 30-50 ms and run.

6. Report back your findings

 

I am assuming you are using a sub.  This will not interfere with hearing your speaker since the XO means you will only miss one or 2 octaves out of the 10 going from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.

I have a Sub I need to hook up. I have been deliberately listening to the La Scala's by themselves, since they are new to me. 

[Quiet_Hollow]

7 hours ago, ka7niq said:

I am more used to Audyssey, and initially did not like MCACC as much as Audyssey, until I played with it. Now, I like it MORE  

I own and have significant experience with an AS-EQ1, a stand alone XT32 unit purposed strictly for subwoofer duty. Although I respect the approach of all the consumer available DSP, Pioneer was the first to put everything I wanted all under one roof and price it for mortals....cough, TacT, cough.

 

[ka7niq]

5 hours ago, Quiet_Hollow said:

I own and have significant experience with an AS-EQ1, a stand alone XT32 unit purposed strictly for subwoofer duty. Although I respect the approach of all the consumer available DSP, Pioneer was the first to put everything I wanted all under one roof and price it for mortals....cough, TacT, cough.

 

I used to own a Sherwood receiver, with the Trinnov Processor. I sold it because it had severe HDMI Handshake problems, and never even tried it's processor.

I was unaware that Pioneer was the first. IMHO, it would be nice to have a built in room correction, that would only do subwoofers. My Son just had an Anthem Receiver that did just that, and left the speakers above 4 or 500 hz alone. According to Floyd Toole, he says that is the best way to do it.

 

[wuzzzer]

Wow, my new receiver just has regular mcacc with only about 10% of the adjustable options that you listed.  Not that I'm complaining!

[ka7niq]

My Son just gave me his old Pioneer Elite SC 87

We both had one, I sold mine because on my Old Dunlavy SC IV speakers, my Onkyo TX NR 809 beat it in sound quality.

I have 3 receivers here, besides the Pioneer Elite VSX 94 I currently have hooked up to the La Scala's. I am using it as a pre amp to drive my Apogee SA 800 B amp.

I have the ONKYO back from being repaired at  ONKYO

I am a Harman Kardon AVR 247

And, the Pioneer SC 87, with the D3 digital amp.

LOL, decisions decisions decisions ...... 

 

[TomR]

 Sorry for highjacking the thread but Im looking at the pioneer elites (sc-lx801) and some equiavlent yamahas if anybody knows anything about them.

[wuzzzer]

I just started using an SC-LX501 within the last week and absolutely love it.  Extremely easy to set everything up with on screen menus.  Sound quality is superb.  The D3 amplification really gets the job done.

As you go up in models they have things like multi channel pre outs and pre ins, mcacc pro versus standard mcacc for speaker calibration, more overall inputs and outputs.  The 501 suited my needs perfectly.  I won't ever go with outboard amplification, I won't ever have anything that utilizes multi channel pre amp outputs and I'm not a huge fan of automatic room correcting stuff.  If it sounds great to me then it sounds great to me!

[ka7niq]

On 12/10/2017 at 9:05 PM, TomR said:

 Sorry for highjacking the thread but Im looking at the pioneer elites (sc-lx801) and some equiavlent yamahas if anybody knows anything about them.

I finally have got around to hooking the Pioneer Elite SC 87 with the D3 digital amps in it.

I have LaScala's, and I am quite impressed with this D3 amplifier.

I simply can't imagine a Yamaha sounding this good.

Now I see why Onkyo bought out Pioneer, LOL

 

[ka7niq]

On 12/4/2017 at 3:57 PM, derrickdj1 said:

Boy, how refreshing to not be on an Auddysee thread, lol.  I don't usually change distance settings.  I think what Tom allude it to was changing the time position in manual MCACC adv. EQ from 50-70 ms to something like 30-50ms can make a world of difference on how the top and bottom end of the sound.

 

I also don't use the ACL, Optimum Surround, direct or pure direct.  I do employ the Hbit since 99% of my music is digital.  Upsampling is set to 4X.  No on DRC, DNR, ASR.  This may sound like gibberish  to people not using MCACC, lol.  We have our own private club on the forum, he, he.

You must use the MISB button  

[ka7niq]

On 12/4/2017 at 3:57 PM, derrickdj1 said:

Boy, how refreshing to not be on an Auddysee thread, lol.  I don't usually change distance settings.  I think what Tom allude it to was changing the time position in manual MCACC adv. EQ from 50-70 ms to something like 30-50ms can make a world of difference on how the top and bottom end of the sound.

 

I also don't use the ACL, Optimum Surround, direct or pure direct.  I do employ the Hbit since 99% of my music is digital.  Upsampling is set to 4X.  No on DRC, DNR, ASR.  This may sound like gibberish  to people not using MCACC, lol.  We have our own private club on the forum, he, he.

My Pioneer Elite SC 87 ONLY has these 4 modes, and AFAIK, you must use one of these. I use Direct, not pure direct, because it turns off the full band phase control  IMHO, that is one of the best featured of this receiver.

On 12/4/2017 at 2:21 PM, Quiet_Hollow said:

 

I steer clear of the AUTO Surround, ALC (Auto Level Correction), and Optimum Surround listening modes as I found they simply crush the sound field. I also do not employ the Direct and Pure Direct listening modes except for when running diagnostics, as they defeat the efforts of the DSP.

 

On my SC 87, Only the Pure Direct defeats some, not all, of the DSP.  It appears that the changes MCACC makes like level, speaker settings and EQ work in pure direct mode, however, the full band phase control is definitely disabled in pure direct. In face, it will not even allow you to engage it in Pure Direct.

 

 

[ka7niq]

Several MCACC Threads have referenced this MCACC Set Up Thread from Germany. It is quite long, and the translation isn't perfect, but FWIW, here it is

 

Pioneer MCACC Setup Guide  The ultimate masterpiece by ENCOM Bluray-disc.de  Foreword and Introduction  Understanding MCACC Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration System  MCACC is no panacea for soundproof and asymmetrical sounding rooms.  MCACC is a tool with which you can  visualize the weak points on the frequency side of a room . Similarly, you can use this tool to  throttle or amplify different frequencies to customize the sound preferences in the current or new  room. This is a basic procedure,  which should be followed in their step sequence.  Space optimization  For all those who want to insulate their space with various absorbers, all steps should finish the conversion first in order not to have to do duplicate work. But those who  do not shy away from time and effort, can take a measurement in the "nakt" room  and then later contrast it with the measurement in the finished room to make the  effect of the conversion visible. It should be noted that at the  EQ nothing is changed, because you want to represent in both measurements only the  sound quality of the room and not  adapt the system to the indefinite room condition.  Measurement and optimization  The best result I have achieved with the following procedure. It's a bit  different than the "small gauge" part of the MCACC thread. I have one myself once again sets and revisits old and re-worked.  The aim was to achieve a warm, homogeneous sound. I took  only limited account of the curves , because a perfect curve does not necessarily meet your personal  taste. A completely linearized system reproduces the original sound  , but the tastes are different and I personally like a warm  tone. Much more I have worked with the calibration times and the resulting  calibration of the system, which  has delivered a far better result than just a perfect linearization. Important in the following procedure is that  it is clear which area is particularly important. As the language area is particularly complex, I have decided to systemize the system initially so  that level exactly this area sounds "silky". The bass management does not include  quite as many bands and can be manually  adjusted to the desire, as far as the bass performance of the speakers, if necessary .  Important - boundary conditions!  Important ! Remove all pit covers !!!  Comparative measurements have shown me that Stoffabdeckugen in their  permeability are not always the same and may possibly lead to different measurement results  . Especially in the symmetry mode, this often leads to phase errors,  where actually none are. After I removed the covers, was at none of the subsequent calibrations and measurements via the MCACC,  erroneous measurements or misstatement of phase errors signaled. The basis for a  successful calibration and the subsequent measurement is the correct measurement and  determination of the room. The LS distance plays no unimportant role and can  only be determined correctly without error. Important ! Be sure  to put the supplied microphone on a tripod. On the crooked backrest, or a pile of  books, the system can only be calibrated to a limited extent and, accordingly,  measurements can not be perfect. It is quite sufficient to use a tripod or similar for a  few euros !!! The tripod should be averaged out with a spirit level and stand perfectly. Inclination can  lead to incorrect measurements during the fine adjustment of the distance , which can then lead to an  undesired level offset due to incorrect transit times . Important ! X - Curve should be at 0 Db  . Also, you should  leave the controls for bass and treble at 0 during the procedure to 0, as this influence when probhören  suggests a different sound . The actual, current sound in the config and setup mode is  to be evaluated without consideration of these elements.  Preparing to Measure  From my own experience, I can  confidently say that a single ---- Savespot ---- is never enough. It comes under warranty a CD, DVD, BD, or synonymous Vinyl, where you are no longer satisfied with its configuration and then the "  bungling" starts. Since the ---- savespot ---- copied, moved, the EQ manipulated  and in the end you do not remember where screw was twisted. The only thing  you know with 100% certainty is that it just does not sound the way  it used to.  So what to do?  The whole "measuring" is a venture, which will take from now on about 1.5 - 2 hours  , provided that the LS are as they  should stand in the future .  The entire procedure is divided into 6 points.  1.) Measuring the room 2.) Calibrating the system and creating 3 memory points for all possible measuring methods.  3.) Analyze and find out the correct time measurement window. Specifically room.  4.) Actual calibration  5.) Linearization and adaptation.  6.) Tips and tricks that  have nothing to do with the technically correct linearization and work with MCACC.  Chapter 1 - Measuring the room and determine  the speaker systems used  --- Savespot 1 --- use !!!  1.) First you start a fully automatic MCACC in the mode symmetry.  1.Advanced MCACC a. Full Auto MCACC - Mode Symmetry --- Savespot 1 ---  2.) Now set all the desired speaker to Small and select the X - overfrequency off.  4. Basic setting - a. Manual LS setting - 2. LS settings  Note: Not all speaker types must be  set to Small . The precision depends on the type of speaker and also on the  personal hearing, as well as the electronics used.  In my example, Center and Surrounds are set to Small  . Front L & R run as Large. X - Over 50 Hz. The entire  front runs in bi - amping mode. When my subs are switched  on , all speakers run on small. X - Over 80 Hz  3.) Now we copy this memory point --- Savespot 2 & 3 ---  Chapter 2 - Calibration of the system and create  the required memory locations 4.) Next, run the automatic EQ calibration,  setting the parameters to LS. Once. to keep. This calibrates the system without the EQ setting.  1.Advanced MCACC - b. Automatically MCACC - At the top where ALL  is, we now click once to the right, so LS. Once. Keep  appears. - We now  assign the following measurement methods to ---- Savespots ---- 1 - 3 as follows. 1 = Symmetry 2 = All Chan Adj. 3 = Front Allign.  Start measurement ...  Now the system is calibrated for all measurement methods based on the room.  Chapter 3 - Analyze and Find the  Right Timing Window. Space Specific. 5.) Now let's take a look at the ---- Savespot 1 ---- symmetry and do  a reverberation measurement to see the actual course of the frequencies in our room.  1.Advanced MCACC - c.Manual MCACC - 5. EQ Professional - a. Reverberation EQ OFF  Note:  This procedure achieves a fine pre-calibration of the internal EQ.  All these points 1 -5 should be made in one piece without changing the microphone  . If you want to take a break for some reason,  you should first determine  the old position the next day via the fine adjustment of the distance, which is very tedious. Take your  easy time and makes the whole calibration on a piece !!! 6.) Now you load the result on the laptop or PC. Consider  the reverberation measurement. If there are frequencies that are too extreme,  this may be due to a too long measurement time. This means that you may  not be able to set your desired sound, because bass, mid and  high have different durations and also be  perceived by the human ear different loud. DBA and DAC measurement.  Time window search - The most time-consuming and difficult part  In order to make the "reading" of the plot easy for everyone, I describe in the  following sentences how to easily recognize where the problem lies Room is located. It is important that you have the first page with the curves in the AV Navigator  and then click on the AFTER button on the top right, because only the curves  AFTER the calibration interest us. Zoom level Z can be moved 2 to 3 clicks  to the left. So the curve is a little smoothed. In the maxzoom you will  see 10 differences in 10 measurements, because the sound and the reverb time  are dependent on a lot of physical conditions, which we can not  influence anything .  Too long measurement time = The bass rips out extremely and also the mids  and highs are enormously "boosted.  Too Short Measurement Time = The bass and mid-bass are very flat and accordingly the sound.  Determine the time window.  7.) I have here 3 different measurands, which can be found in the PRO EQ subitem  Advanced EQ.  60 - 80 ms. Longest, manually selectable time.  30 - 50 ms. recommended.  10 - 20 ms. Shortest measuring time.  Since the reverb time is very long at punk 1, almost all  frequencies here have the time they need to be reflected in the room. The  consequence is that especially in the middle and high-frequency range of the PRO EQ those  frequencies are regulated too much, which  bring a very high or bright sound picture with it.  7.1) Availability of walking - measuring times. 80 -160 ms. Default value. ONLY IN FULL AUTO MCACC (will only be  executed automatically and can not be selected manually)  60 - 80 ms  50 - 70 ms  40 - 60 ms  Note: 30 - 50 ms Recommended by Pioneer This time should be  the perfect one strives to use as a basis to be able to make a first tendency /  statement: too long and too short time will not work, so  start in the middle, if necessary,  go up one step at the second , but go down  20 - 40 ms. (my final choice)  10 - 30 ms  0 - 20 ms  8.) This part is certainly the most time-consuming, because you have a high number of Calibrations and reverberation measurements must perform. It is best to put this  point on memory points 4 - 6. The curves do  not matter at the moment , because the hearing should decide, with which time the sound  one likes best. In my case, I have 20-40  ms for the measurement time . decided, since so the middle and high range  corresponds to my imagination . But presupposes that later I have to  readjust the bass manually to the LS . For this purpose, it is recommended to use several CDs to test  to avoid overemphasis.  Chapter 4 - Actual calibration  --- Savespot 1 --- use !!! 1.) We choose again the 1. Advanced MCACC - Automatic MCACC - leaving  the setting at All at the top, since we are now using the system and the  calibration is finished.  2.) We check if the ---- Savespots ---- still fit the measuring methods.  1. symmetry.  2. All Chan.Adj.  3. Front Align  3.) Start measurement.  4.) Now we have all three measurement methods professionally correct.  Note: Please remember  to make the right choice for the speaker setup. Small or Large. Small has the distinct advantage of having  all the energy available for clean control of funds and resources Tweeter can be used. This is particularly important for receivers, which  indeed have an impressive performance in writing,  then go to their knees when requested. That's because the bass  needs the most power. So who drives his system with a receiver, without  additional power amplifiers, should make friends with Small. The sonic  gain is not to be despised. Please put off the fear of the electronic "castration" of  potent loudspeakers! Large has the advantage that with a meticulous  linearization almost all frequencies can be corrected.  To the basement of 63 Hz. To be used by All Chan. Adj. Who a Vor.- End Combi drives, or has a receiver with separate amplifiers, which can quite  experiment with it and come to a satisfactory result.  ATTENTION: How well one can linearise his system depends not insignificantly  on the room acoustics. Especially with Small, it often happens that you have  peaks in the 63 Hz range after a measurement. This frequency can  NOT be changed and adjusted in Small . In that case you should  experiment with an even higher X Over Frequency, so that just bass parts are  almost completely taken over by the Sub / Subs.  Further notes on Small Vs. Large  Please register here for free to see the link.  Thanks Patrick Star Chapter 5 - Lineraisierung and final adjustment  1.) First we copy --- Savespot 1 --- on --- Savespot 4 ---  2.) Savespot 2 on Savespot 5  3.) Savespot 3 on Savespot 6  Now we have 3 Savespots to experiment and 3 as backup.  At Savespot 1 -3 nothing is changed !!!  If you want to linearize  your system precisely to the smallest detail, you will need the Savespot 5 All Chan. Adj. There each channel was  calibrated without special emphasis its location fair. At this point you can take  a lot of time and perfectly linearize the entire system. Who cares  that all speakers sound almost identical, which should be with the Savespot 6 deals with front align. There, the main speakers L & R are NOT equalized.  Only the other speakers are adapted to the front LS. Do  not let the crazy curves drive you crazy. Listen to it. In my  opinion the best for music .  If you want to linearize a bit, but not the imensen effort as  in All Chan. Adj., He should look at the symmetry mode.  There is left and right always the same. This means that the curve  representation is ALWAYS displayed as a pair of the LS. Also, the EQ is easy to configure, because you just  just Front L & R - Surr. L & R must set equal.  Note. After each correction, a manual reverberation measurement MUST be used respectively. The EQ MUST be ON because you  want to measure and display the changed frequency response in the room.  Chapter 6 - Tips and Tricks  ATTENTION - Here we leave the path of technical and technically correct  measurement. If you want to adjust your sound a bit to your listening preferences  , you can proceed as follows ...  Too little bass?  Just open the EQ. Simply control the test tone via Volumcontrol to quiet.  Select the LS (s) concerned and adjust the frequencies upwards.  Bass = 63 Hz, 125 Hz Do not overdo it if you change the center and surrounds as well  . Fast it can roar again. Left and right around the same amount change. Count any clicks. Likewise, with Audio Parameter under the item Tone,  the bass control can be raised. It should be noted, however, that the entire  range of 63 Hz, 125 Hz and 250 will be increased by the same level.  Sound too bright?  Again, you can proceed as in the bass problem, but the voice range  and high-pitch range is far more complex and not quite as easy to set manually  . Piece by piece is the motto. For  those who are too loud and dominant in music, or especially in films (shots, explosions),  the X Curve should be considered in the subsection of the manual MCACC and this one around Lower some DB. The formula described in the BA is nice and good, but no  guarantee that this correlates with personal hearing. I  lowered this by -2DB and am perfectly satisfied.  Congratulations. You have successfully  set up your Pioneer MCACC system .

[Quiet_Hollow]

On 12/23/2017 at 6:30 PM, ka7niq said:

My Pioneer Elite SC 87 ONLY has these 4 modes, and AFAIK, you must use one of these.

There's several more available, contingent upon how many speakers are connected. In a typical 2-ch setup, basic stereo output (with all MCACC processing enabled) is achieved by cycling through the surround listening modes (SURR button on the remote) until "STEREO" is displayed.

 

[Schu]

I've been playing music with "extended surround sound" and it sounds quite good with a 5.1 setup. I am not sure how it determines what frequencies go to which of the five speakers from a 2 channel recording, but it sounds "nearly" like a true 5.1 studio remix.

[ka7niq]

9 hours ago, Quiet_Hollow said:

There's several more available, contingent upon how many speakers are connected. In a typical 2-ch setup, basic stereo output (with all MCACC processing enabled) is achieved by cycling through the surround listening modes (SURR button on the remote) until "STEREO" is displayed.

 

I wasn't talking about surround modes, I was talking about direct, pure direct, auto surround, alc

You MUST use one of those modes on my SC 87