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Adding sub to (my) "Belle's"


avguytx

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I know this has been covered plenty of times but I'm just looking to augment the low end for some music I listen to that the CF-3's did great with.  My living room will not support me building a huge folded horn woofer; that will have to wait till we move hopefully next year where I'll have a dedicated room.  I can buy many lines of A/V items at cost (including Klipsch) because of my almost 30 years in the industry so I'm going to use my resources like I did with the Onkyo P-3000R preamp I bought.  The sub will be crossed over most likely around 50hz or below.  I have 2 sets of line level outputs on the preamp that are adjustable, for bi-amping purposes, so it will be able to balance the sub in the same way.  I was thinking the R-115SW would do a good job for my purposes for the time being.  I don't do surround anymore....just 2-channel.  

 

Anyone use this sub, or a similar model, with their Belle's or La Scala's with decent results?

 

But in the end, a lot of what I've read leads back to what we all know; ported/sealed subs don't always mesh with horn loaded speakers.  

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What is your budget for a sub?  There are a lot a great quality subs out these days. Almost all of the them talked about on AVS's sub forum. On another note, as you noted, the bass from the Epic CF3's is fairly impactful to say the least. 

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@jason str brought a Table Tuba to a gathering at Seth's @Lemon string house and they used it with @jimjimbo s Super Heresy's

it was very nice looking and sounded very good . They never pushed it hard and I believe Jason has stated it is no match for a Tuba but it would be my first option if I were in your shoes , especially with your skills :D

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34 minutes ago, avguytx said:

I know this has been covered plenty of times but I'm just looking to augment the low end for some music I listen to that the CF-3's did great with.  My living room will not support me building a huge folded horn woofer; that will have to wait till we move hopefully next year where I'll have a dedicated room.  I can buy many lines of A/V items at cost (including Klipsch) because of my almost 30 years in the industry so I'm going to use my resources like I did with the Onkyo P-3000R preamp I bought.  The sub will be crossed over most likely around 50hz or below.  I have 2 sets of line level outputs on the preamp that are adjustable, for bi-amping purposes, so it will be able to balance the sub in the same way.  I was thinking the R-115SW would do a good job for my purposes for the time being.  I don't do surround anymore....just 2-channel.  

 

Anyone use this sub, or a similar model, with their Belle's or La Scala's with decent results?

 

But in the end, a lot of what I've read leads back to what we all know; ported/sealed subs don't always mesh with horn loaded speakers.  

I am only going to say this to you, I disagree with that statement that subs can't be meshed with horn loaded speakers. I use two SVS subs with my khorns and you would very surprised at how well they mesh and how good they sound. Of course I have room treatment and used REW to match all the phasing and delays to perfection... Anyway I highly recommend the SVS subs they have incredible customer service and great subs at good prices...

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It would be hidden if I do decide to add a sub. I agree...it wouldn't look right with those two opposites so close. I may just poop can this idea and wait to do anything like this till we've moved and I have my own area. I don't want to over crowd the living room if I don't have to. I'm going to be interested to hear what the sound difference is between the VTA ST-70 versus the fully rebuilt MC250 that I'll be picking up next week from the Mac tech in Little Rock.  

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21 minutes ago, avguytx said:

I'm going to be interested to hear what the sound difference is between the VTA ST-70 versus the fully rebuilt MC250 that I'll be picking up next week from the Mac tech in Little Rock.  

I'm interested to hear what you think about that as well.  Good times.

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True, and I've thought about that.  But the sub would be put into the left corner of the room...maybe a couple feet from the left speaker and there's always either a love seat or recliner on the adjourning wall so it could be dressed up/hidden if it was put over there.  My next building project, as I promised her, would be building a new coffee table and some end tables and  then night stands.  That was the deal since we'd build other things this year like the 2 level back deck that she wanted amongst other stuff through out the last couple of years...not to mention totally rebuilding my mothers house from top to bottom...literally....to get it sold.

 

Yeah, I thought about a "tuba coffee table" but I don't know if I can pull that off with what she wants them to look like.  Plus, that wire on the floor going to it wouldn't work for either of us.  And certainly not with animals in the house (besides our kids).  I could potentially build one and it go into the corner and have the looks of the others that are more visible.  It would just be a balancing of cost to just buy one and use temporarily versus getting a woofer, getting a plate amp (or something), getting wood and veneer, and finding time again to build something once again.  And for just wanting to hear a little "oomph" below 50hz, the new Klipsch one may do all I'm wanting to hear.  Even that R-112SW would probably work especially considering what I can buy either for.

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I was short of space as well and wanted to extend the low end of my Belles (actually didn't know I needed to until I read it here, I was happy with the bass, but....) I decided to give the Lil Mike anarchy tapped horns a try. They fit neatly under the Belles and don't take up any additional floor space. They are a little tricky build but would be easy for you based on the way your Belles turned out. They also bring the mid and tweet a little closer to ear level of my listening position (without creating a void). They aren't for overly large rooms or for the extreme low end db's of home theatre, but do seem to blend well with the horn loaded woofers at my normal listening levels. You can even add more of them to increase the low end even further if so desired (I use two now). Not everyone agrees, but they never do. Works for me. You could even make them out of some nice plywood and stain to match (or come close) to your Belles.

 

c3.thumb.jpg.31b2c1c34caaee0947dacbc7025a5345.jpgatap.thumb.jpg.063bef8ab0cca2d73c1ff4be0abadf1f.jpg

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On December 15, 2017 at 7:04 PM, MookieStl said:

I was short of space a well and wanted to extend the low end of my Belles (actually didn't know I needed to until I read it here, I was happy with the bass, but....) I decided to give the Lil Mike anarchy tapped horns a try. They fit neatly under the Belles and don't take up any additional floor space. They are a little tricky build but would be easy for you based on the way your Belles turned out. They also bring the mid and tweet a little closer to ear level of my listening position (without creating a void). They aren't for overly large rooms or for the extreme low end db's of home theatre, but do seem to blend well with the horn loaded woofers at my normal listening levels. You can even add more of them to increase the low end even further if so desired (I use two now). Not everyone agrees, but they never do. Works for me. You could even make them out of some nice plywood and stain to match (or come close) to your Belles.

 

c3.thumb.jpg.31b2c1c34caaee0947dacbc7025a5345.jpgatap.thumb.jpg.063bef8ab0cca2d73c1ff4be0abadf1f.jpg

 

I agree.  My space is limited.  Based on a thread started by Carl, @CECAA850, I built one, then two.  Two are better than one.  Eventually I built two more.  Four are better than two, but the diminishing return factor is definitely in effect.  

 

The relatively small size permits the use of multiple subs to smooth out the in-room response and to increase output, even though extension is not increased by multiples.

 

These were an easier build when the flat packs were still available from DIYSOUNDGROUP.   I actually built a fifth from scratch.  That wasn't too difficult, especially after building the other four.  Feel free to send a PM if you want to discuss the Lil'Mike Anarchy Exodus tapped horn sub in greater detail.

 

The attached photos show two of the four.  The other two are behind the couch.

 

 

 

 

 

image.jpg

image.jpg

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On 12/17/2017 at 11:20 AM, jason str said:

The THTLP slim takes up minimal floor space (18" x 15") and would be the best option if space is limited, just place it upright firing towards the ceiling.

 

I would/will do something like these when we, hopefully, find/build a new house next year and I have a dedicated room.  Otherwise, even I wouldn't want a 6 foot tall sub in our living room; it just wouldn't work.  I am not a big fan of our house but wife already had it when we got married 4.5 years ago.  It's worked but it's time to move on...literally.  

 

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small footprint but tall folded tapped horns can fit into corners and if painted the same color as the wall will disappear. This type of cabinet can also (sometimes) be fitted between the floor joists (basement side) and only a vent opening in the floor is then required. This could also be installed in ceiling in the same manner for a very stealth installation. Just some food for thought for you and others.

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Yeah, I've done subwoofers both ways....between attic joists firing down with a grill and also from a basement firing up and works quite well if you find the right area where the null works with you.  My house is on a slab so that doesn't work for down low and I don't really want to carry a big %@!~+ sub up our tall garage ladder to the attic...not to mention weight restriction of the ladder and getting it through the opening.  (me weighing 225lbs and then however heavy that sub cabinet is at an angle going up 15 feet into the attic.  Uh, no)

 

 I think for the time being, I'm going to try out my Sunfire 1000 watt sub and see what happens.  Well, after Christmas, anyway, since the tree is where I'd want the sub to be right now.  If it works, great.  If not, no sweat and I'll take it back over to my buddy's house where it's been the last 8 years since I've moved back from TX.  lol  if it can add anything below 50hz at the reasonable level I listen at, it will be fine for now and worth a shot.  Thanks to all.

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10 hours ago, Schu said:

How the check do you time that with the mains?

The sound coming off the back side of the driver is a foot or so from the mouth.  It shouldn't be that far off.  The sound off the front of the driver that goes through the horn is supposed to be in phase with the sound from the front, in theory.

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My two corner-located (DIY) TH-SPUDs have precursor pulses from the mouth side of the tapped horn woofers...that Audyssey likes to key on for setting time delays.  I simply add 21 feet (about 18.6 ms) to that distance manually, corresponding to the path length of the TH-SPUD horn in order to get the subs in time alignment with the other surrounding loudspeaker channels. 

 

I've found out experimentally that Audyssey is using higher frequencies from the subs in order to perform delay calculations--in fact, so much higher than the 40 Hz center crossover frequency setting that the input calibration signal is has been significantly attenuated by the active crossover filter. 

 

Audyssey itself has trouble setting the sub time delay because of this. The TH subs also don't produce as high of percentage harmonic distortion that direct radiating subwoofers usually produce, such that Audyssey can't use those higher frequency harmonics to help calculate delay.  So Audyssey usually runs two upsweeps, the second sweep at 10 dB higher output, in order to measure the time delays of the subs. (Yet another "feature" of Audyssey that you got to love.)

 

I finally figured out how insensitive the subwoofer-measured time delay setting actually was.  A simple distance+horn path length calculation input into Audyssey by hand is actually more accurate than Audyssey's measurement schema.  At those crossover frequencies (40 Hz), being off as much as 6 ms (i.e., 1/4 wavelength at room temperature corresponding to about 7 feet of time misalignment relative to the selected microphone listening positions) really isn't audible. 

 

Chris

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