Adding sub to (my) "Belle's"

[ClaudeJ1]

4 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

I believe it wasn't so both speakers shared the load, more so the stylus would stay in the groove as it moved to mono when the frequency dropped.

 

Bruce

Yep. Killing 2 birds with one stone for vinyl. CD's lifted that restriction 35 years ago, the day I got my Sony CD player, the only one available back then (they beat Philips, the inventors, to the punch in the market).

[JohnA]

On 12/15/2017 at 12:14 PM, avguytx said:

I know this has been covered plenty of times but I'm just looking to augment the low end for some music I listen to that the CF-3's did great with.  My living room will not support me building a huge folded horn woofer; that will have to wait till we move hopefully next year where I'll have a dedicated room.  I can buy many lines of A/V items at cost (including Klipsch) because of my almost 30 years in the industry so I'm going to use my resources like I did with the Onkyo P-3000R preamp I bought.  The sub will be crossed over most likely around 50hz or below.  I have 2 sets of line level outputs on the preamp that are adjustable, for bi-amping purposes, so it will be able to balance the sub in the same way.  I was thinking the R-115SW would do a good job for my purposes for the time being.  I don't do surround anymore....just 2-channel.  

 

Anyone use this sub, or a similar model, with their Belle's or La Scala's with decent results?

 

But in the end, a lot of what I've read leads back to what we all know; ported/sealed subs don't always mesh with horn loaded speakers.  

 

 

I'm late to this discussion because I don't check this section often.  I'm running 4 VMPS New Larger Subwoofers with Megawoofer option, driven by 2 Acurus A250 power amps.  Each gets about 375 watts.  Two were plenty until "Revenge Of The Fallen" came out.  No JBL theater system is allowed to out power mine!  LOL!  I do add several feet of time delay to the sub channels.  I don't sense a mismatch between the subs and my La Scalas.  However, these are known to have quite low distortion for a subwoofer and using 4 reduces excursion further, helping to reduce modulation distortion.  They measured -4 dB at 16 Hz in my old house. 

 

If you can get two low distortion 15" subs in your room I predict you will be satisfied with the results.

[uams]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 1:51 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

First of all I certainly agree with your sentiments here, Chris, but I do NOT have most people's setups, far from it. Second of all, my Xover point to the subs is 40 Hz., NOT 80 Hz like most people. I assure you that I can give up way more than 1 db (probably more like 20 db) of deep bass to get things flatter and better distributed BEFORE I apply EQ. All 6 of my surround channels can reach 130 peaks EASILY...............BUT, I typically listen to 85 db typical and 90 db Max. unless I'm trying to impress someone with a demo......usually real live SPL on a guy beating the heck out of drums (Chesky recording) or the sound of a rotary engine on an airplane (courtesy of Don "DB" Keele). In those cases, 120 db happens for a short time. Also the plane  crash scene in "Rise of the Phoenix" is a good one. I am VERY happy with my setup, but I just want to try 4 subs for the heck of it instead or just reading about it......putting my money where the theory is, so to speak.

 

My upstairs loft is 18" wide x 29.5 feet long with a 7 ft concrete ceiling. The rear TH sub (with a killer MTX driver in a tapped horn) is in a half high wall to an opening in the stairway, about 3.5" in from the 29.5 dimension, so about 26 feet away from the front sub, which is an OThorn with a 24" B&C driver that can handle 4 Kilowatts easily. This second floor loft sits above a main floor which is 45' x 18" with a 14' ceiling. My 18' wide front wall is also only half high, so it's really a very "open" room. So it would appear that super long wavelengths have plenty of space for non-linear propagation!

 

The front and rear, 4 ohms subs are powered by a FANLESS Crown K2 that can do 1 KW peak per channel into those subs, which are 97-100 db efficiency for a 1 Watt input. I can easily reach 130 peak levels with just those two subs. Those who have heard and FELT it with just the two described here have said it's the most defined, deepest, and tightest bass they have ever heard on any program material.

 

Now imagine soon adding 2 more, which are about 106 db/watt, being Full Horns on each side (shorter distance apart), with another K2 amplifier (same 30 db Watt peaks PER horn as the existing ones). Most people that test a SINGLE THT with a 20 Hz. sine wave generator say their windows almost blow out from the 120 db SPL@ 1 meter with only about 10 volts (25 Watts). I believe strongly that HEADROOM is alway your friend in Audio!!

 

Hopefully, the OP will consider Tapped Horn or Full Horn subs in his setup in order to better integrate with super efficient BELLES!!

 

@ClaudeJ1

 

Being the two subs in your setup presently (and for some time now, it seems) are both tapped horns, is that a reflection of an actual preference for tapped horn iterations over "Full Horn subs"? It appears you've also used Mr. Fitz Maurice's THT at an earlier juncture, and if so how would you compare the bass from the THT to both the TH-50 and OThorn? 

 

Oh, and do you care to elaborate on your choice of two different tapped horn subs in your setup? If I had to guess the OThorn provides the most "musical" bass of the two, and the TH-50 extends a few Hz deeper to fill in and give some heft for watching movies..

[ClaudeJ1]

On 2/7/2019 at 3:25 PM, uams said:

 

@ClaudeJ1

 

Being the two subs in your setup presently (and for some time now, it seems) are both tapped horns, is that a reflection of an actual preference for tapped horn iterations over "Full Horn subs"? It appears you've also used Mr. Fitz Maurice's THT at an earlier juncture, and if so how would you compare the bass from the THT to both the TH-50 and OThorn? 

 

Oh, and do you care to elaborate on your choice of two different tapped horn subs in your setup? If I had to guess the OThorn provides the most "musical" bass of the two, and the TH-50 extends a few Hz deeper to fill in and give some heft for watching movies..

I'd say that your summary is both fair and accurate. In my new, much, much, smaller digs (old house), I'm building two of my "coffee table" subs, which started my Tapped Horn subwoofer journey about 10 years ago. I owned all of the Danley offerings, and built my own, along both the Tuba HT and the Low Profile version. With the proper driver, both are excellent, but you only give up about 6 db of efficiency when you go to a much smaller, Tapped Horn, vs. a full Horn, like the Tubas. I still have the OThorn and TH-50 Prototype #3 (Danley's first design for Imax Theaters). I'm now building two of the "coffee table" TH's for the rear. They will be standing up against each other and on the back wall with Channel #6 on top (most movies are 5.1, Start Wars Blue Rays are 6.1, and very few are 7.1), and Shelves in front, for a total of 4 Subs. I have tried many 7.1 configurations and that 7th channel is a waste unless you have a door between them. My new fave is Dolby Atmos!!

 

It's not so much for output, but for better distribution of room modes. I will also be using smaller amplifiers now that the room is so small. About 100 watts per channel will do it, since I''ve been observing power meters as a visual indicator, instead of "swinging for the fences" with the Corown K2's Kilowatt capbility across 4 channels. I simply no longer need it. The F-20 and THT's can run from about 2 1/2 octaves, while Tapped Horns are good only for about 2 Octaves, so choose your frequency bands wisely. It's still a trade-off between bandwidth, efficiency, cubic feet, and amplifier power. Balance is the key and all of them will work. I chose Tapped Horns because they can use more massive drivers with a higher Fs, fewer cubic feet, and still get really low for a given box volume. I gave up on 12 Hz. capability when I looked at Blue Ray data and found that VERY FEW of them had content below 20 Hz. Also IMAX theaters are specified down to only 23 Hz., so close enough to do both music and movies in 2.2 or 6.2 without worries. That being said, Pipe Organ fanatics should try and get 16 Hz. but that is rare for me. Mine get to 17.5 Hz. just fine, so close enough.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 2/6/2019 at 4:53 PM, JohnA said:

 

 

I'm late to this discussion because I don't check this section often.  I'm running 4 VMPS New Larger Subwoofers with Megawoofer option, driven by 2 Acurus A250 power amps.  Each gets about 375 watts.  Two were plenty until "Revenge Of The Fallen" came out.  No JBL theater system is allowed to out power mine!  LOL!  I do add several feet of time delay to the sub channels.  I don't sense a mismatch between the subs and my La Scalas.  However, these are known to have quite low distortion for a subwoofer and using 4 reduces excursion further, helping to reduce modulation distortion.  They measured -4 dB at 16 Hz in my old house. 

 

If you can get two low distortion 15" subs in your room I predict you will be satisfied with the results.

I had 2 of those VMPS subs in my basment, until my daughters cat destroyed them with Urine on her daily walks across the grille cloth (unbeknownst to me, since they were hidden)! They were my very first Subwoofer Purchase (used) pointing up behind my MWM stack in 2008. They used to move pictures on the wall. Good DR sub sub designs with a unique Passive Radiator in the Port.